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A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

openai.com

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Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#171

Post by Mengkudulangsat »

treflop wrote: post #170
margalabargala wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the presence of sufficiently good and ubiquitous tools, knowing how to do some base thing loses most or all of its value. In a world where everyone has a phone/calculator in their pocket, remembering how to do long division on paper is not worthwhile. If I ask you "what is 457829639 divided by 3454", it is not worth your time to do that by hand rather than plugging it into your phone's calculator. In a world where…

Wait until AI prints out something that doesn't work and you can't figure out how to fix it because you don't know how it works so you do trial and error for 3 hours. The difference is that you can trust a good calculator. You currently can't trust AI to be right. If we get a point where the output of AI is trustworthy, that's a whole different kind of world altogether.

Hopefully that happens rare enough that when it does, we can call upon highly-paid human experts that still remembers the art of doing long divisions.

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#172

Post by margalabargala »

treflop wrote: post #170
margalabargala wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the presence of sufficiently good and ubiquitous tools, knowing how to do some base thing loses most or all of its value. In a world where everyone has a phone/calculator in their pocket, remembering how to do long division on paper is not worthwhile. If I ask you "what is 457829639 divided by 3454", it is not worth your time to do that by hand rather than plugging it into your phone's calculator. In a world where…

Wait until AI prints out something that doesn't work and you can't figure out how to fix it because you don't know how it works so you do trial and error for 3 hours. The difference is that you can trust a good calculator. You currently can't trust AI to be right. If we get a point where the output of AI is trustworthy, that's a whole different kind of world altogether.

For replacement like I described, sure. But it will be very useful long before that.

AI that writes a bash script doesn't need to be better than an experienced engineer. It doesn't even need to be better than a junior engineer.

It just needs to be better than Stack Overflow.

That bar is really not far away.

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#173

Post by fragmede »

mav3ri3k wrote: post #166
wcfrobert wrote: post #120

Lots of interesting debates in this thread. I think it is worth placing writing/coding tasks into two buckets. Are you producing? Or are you learning? For example, I have zero qualms about relying on AI at work to write progress reports and code up some scripts. I know I can do it myself but why would I? I spent many years in college learning to read and write and code. AI makes me at least 2x more efficient at my jo…

A current 3rd year college student here. I really want LLMs to help me in learning but the success rate is 0. They often can not generate relatively trivial code When they do, they can not explain that code. For example, I was trying to learn socket programing in C. Claude generated the code, but when I stared asking about stuff, it regressed hard. Also, often the code is more complex than it needs to be. When learni…

Care to share any of these chats?

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#174

Post by wdutch »

freedomben wrote: post #51

I sit on my local school board and (as everyone knows) AI has been whirling through the school like a tornado. I'm concerned about student using it to cheat, but I'm also pretty concerned about how teachers are using it. For example, many teachers have fed student essays into ChatGPT and asked "did AI write this?" or "was this plagiarized" or similar, and fully trusting whatever the AI tells them. This has led to som…

I imagine maths teachers had a similar dilemma when pocket calculators became widely available.

Now, in the UK students sit 2 different exams: one where calculators are forbidden and one where calculators are permitted (and encouraged). The problems for the calculator exam are chosen so that the candidate must do a lot of problem solving that isn't just computation. Furthermore, putting a problem into a calculator and then double checking the answer is a skill in itself that is taught.

I think the same sort of solution will be needed across the board now - where students learn to think for themselves without the technology but also learn to correctly use the technology to solve the right kinds of challenges and have the skills to check the answers.

People on HN often talk about ai detection or putting invisible text in the instructions to detect copy and pasting. I think this is a fundamentally wrong approach. We need to work with, not against the technology - the genie is out of the bottle now.

As an example of a non-chatgpt way to evaluate students, teachers can choose topics chatgpt fails at. I do a lot of writing on niche topics and there are plenty of topics out there where chatgpt has no clue and spits out pure fabrications. Teachers can play around to find a topic where chatgpt performs poorly.

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#175

Post by jltsiren »

alwayslikethis wrote: post #135
wcfrobert wrote: post #120

Lots of interesting debates in this thread. I think it is worth placing writing/coding tasks into two buckets. Are you producing? Or are you learning? For example, I have zero qualms about relying on AI at work to write progress reports and code up some scripts. I know I can do it myself but why would I? I spent many years in college learning to read and write and code. AI makes me at least 2x more efficient at my jo…

> a certain degree of "productive struggle" is essential Honestly, I'm not sure this would account for most of the difficulty in learning. In my experience most of the difficulty involved in learning something involved a few missing pieces of insight. It often took longer to understand the few missing pieces than the rest of the topic. If they are accurate enough, LLMs are great for getting yourself unstuck and keep…

I once knew someone who studied CS and medicine at the same time. According to them, if you didn't understand something in CS after reasonable effort, you should do something else and try again next semester. But if you didn't understand something in medicine, you just had to work harder. Sometimes it's enough that you have the right insights and cognitive tools. And sometimes you have to be familiar with the big picture, the details, and everything in between.

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#176

Post by owenpalmer »

mav3ri3k wrote: post #166
wcfrobert wrote: post #120

Lots of interesting debates in this thread. I think it is worth placing writing/coding tasks into two buckets. Are you producing? Or are you learning? For example, I have zero qualms about relying on AI at work to write progress reports and code up some scripts. I know I can do it myself but why would I? I spent many years in college learning to read and write and code. AI makes me at least 2x more efficient at my jo…

A current 3rd year college student here. I really want LLMs to help me in learning but the success rate is 0. They often can not generate relatively trivial code When they do, they can not explain that code. For example, I was trying to learn socket programing in C. Claude generated the code, but when I stared asking about stuff, it regressed hard. Also, often the code is more complex than it needs to be. When learni…

I'm starting to suspect that people generally have poor experiences with LLMs due to bad prompting skills. I would need to see your chats with it in order to know if you're telling the truth.

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#177

Post by kamaal »

sbuttgereit wrote: post #148
wcfrobert wrote: post #120

Lots of interesting debates in this thread. I think it is worth placing writing/coding tasks into two buckets. Are you producing? Or are you learning? For example, I have zero qualms about relying on AI at work to write progress reports and code up some scripts. I know I can do it myself but why would I? I spent many years in college learning to read and write and code. AI makes me at least 2x more efficient at my jo…

"But there is something to be said about atrophy. If you don't use it, you lose it. I wonder if my coding skill will deteriorate in the years to come..." "You don't want to over-rely on AI because a certain degree of "productive struggle" is essential for learning something deeply." These two ideas are closely related and really just different aspects of the same basic frailty of the human intellect. Understanding th…

>>I wonder if my coding skill will deteriorate in the years to come...

Well that's not how LLMs work. Don't use an LLM to do thinking for you. You use LLMs to work for you, while you tell(after thinking) it what's to be done.

Basically things like-

. Attach a click handler to this button with x, y, z params and on click route it to the path /a/b/c

. Change the color of this header to purple.

. Parse the json in param 'payload' and pick up the value under this>then>that and return

etc. kind of dictation.

You don't ask big questions like 'Write me a todo app', or 'Write me this dashboard'. Those are too broad questions.

You will still continue to code and work like you always have. Except that you now have a good coding assistant that will do the chore of typing for you.

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#178

Post by [deleted] »

margalabargala wrote: post #156
sbuttgereit wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But there is something to be said about atrophy. If you don't use it, you lose it. I wonder if my coding skill will deteriorate in the years to come..." "You don't want to over-rely on AI because a certain degree of "productive struggle" is essential for learning something deeply." These two ideas are closely related and really just different aspects of the same basic frailty of the human intellect. Understanding th…

In the presence of sufficiently good and ubiquitous tools, knowing how to do some base thing loses most or all of its value. In a world where everyone has a phone/calculator in their pocket, remembering how to do long division on paper is not worthwhile. If I ask you "what is 457829639 divided by 3454", it is not worth your time to do that by hand rather than plugging it into your phone's calculator. In a world where…

[deleted]

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#179

Post by GuB-42 »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #46

Stuff like this is sincere but hopelessly naive. It's kind of sad that the people who invented all this stuff really loved school, and now the most disruptive part of their technology so far has been ruining school.

> It's kind of sad that the people who invented all this stuff really loved school

Really? I didn't invent ChatGPT or anything like that, but I work in tech, I love science, maths, and learning in general, but I hated school. I found school to make the most interesting things boring. I felt it was all about following a line and writing too many pages of stuff. Maybe I am wrong, but it is certainly how I felt back then, and I am sure many people at OpenAI felt this way.

The school system is not great for atypical profiles, and most of the geniuses who are able to come up with revolutionary ideas are atypical. Note that I don't mean that if you are atypical and/or hate school then you are a genius, or that geniuses in general hate school, but I am convinced that among well educated people, geniuses are more likely to hate school.

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#180

Post by kamaal »

treflop wrote: post #170
margalabargala wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the presence of sufficiently good and ubiquitous tools, knowing how to do some base thing loses most or all of its value. In a world where everyone has a phone/calculator in their pocket, remembering how to do long division on paper is not worthwhile. If I ask you "what is 457829639 divided by 3454", it is not worth your time to do that by hand rather than plugging it into your phone's calculator. In a world where…

Wait until AI prints out something that doesn't work and you can't figure out how to fix it because you don't know how it works so you do trial and error for 3 hours. The difference is that you can trust a good calculator. You currently can't trust AI to be right. If we get a point where the output of AI is trustworthy, that's a whole different kind of world altogether.

>>The difference is that you can trust a good calculator. You currently can't trust AI to be right.

Well that is because you ask a calculator to divide numbers. Which is a question that can be interpreted in only one way. And done only one way.

Ask the smallest possible for loop and if loop that AI can generate now you have the pocket calculator equivalent of programming.

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