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A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

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Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#121

Post by dr_dshiv »

JadeNB wrote: post #106
dr_dshiv wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve seen a lot of places that require students to reference their ChatGPT use — and I think it is wrong headed. Because it is not a source to cite! But, sharing links for helping teachers understand your prompting is great

> I’ve seen a lot of places that require students to reference their ChatGPT use — and I think it is wrong headed. Because it is not a source to cite! Why is it not a source? I think that it is not if "source" means "repository of truth," but I don't think that's the only valid meaning of "source." For example, if I were reporting on propaganda, then I think that I could cite actual propaganda as a source, even thoug…

Because otherwise it becomes convoluted. It is acceptable to cite and source published material. Having to account for the source of one’s ideas, however, citing friends and influences - it shouldn’t be a moral requirement, just imagine!

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#122

Post by zikduruqe »

amelius wrote: post #91
WalterBright wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because it spits out a RE doesn't mean the RE is what you wanted. For one thing, you'll need to be precise in your prompt.

You don't need to be precise. Just give it an example string and tell it what information you want to extract from it and it usually works. It is just way faster than doing it manually.

Claude/ChatGPT has become my man pages.

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#123

Post by booleandilemma »

wcfrobert wrote: post #120

Lots of interesting debates in this thread. I think it is worth placing writing/coding tasks into two buckets. Are you producing? Or are you learning? For example, I have zero qualms about relying on AI at work to write progress reports and code up some scripts. I know I can do it myself but why would I? I spent many years in college learning to read and write and code. AI makes me at least 2x more efficient at my jo…

I used to have dozens of phone numbers memorized. Once I got a cell phone I forgot everyone's number. I don't even know the phone number of my own mother.

I don't want to lose my ability to think. I don't want to become intellectually dependent on AI in the slightest.

I've been programming for over a decade without AI and I don't suddenly need it now.

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#124

Post by Moru »

brtkdotse wrote: post #32
ratedgene wrote: post #25

I was talking to a teacher today that works with me at length about the impact of AI LLM models are having now when considering student's attitude towards learning. When I was young, I refused to learn geography because we had map applications. I could just look it up. I did the same for anything I could, offload the cognitive overhead to something better -- I think this is something we all do consciously or not. Tha…

> I refused to learn geography because we had map applications Which is ironic, because geography isn’t about memorizing maps

Funny you should say that. In Sweden, to get good grades in English you have to learn lots of facts about UK, like population, name of kings and so on. What does that have to do with english? It's spoken in many other countries too. And those facts change, the answers weren't even up to date now...

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#125

Post by CuriouslyC »

QuarterReptile wrote: post #54
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some parts of it were though.

Almost all parts require it, but none are about it. That's how background knowledge works. If you can't get over the drudgery of learning scales and chords, you'll never learn music. The fact that many learners never understand this end goal is sad but doesn't invalidate the methodology needed to achieve the progression.

> That's how background knowledge works. If you can't get over the drudgery of learning scales and chords, you'll never learn music.

Tell that to drummers

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#126

Post by keeganpoppen »

booleandilemma wrote: post #123
wcfrobert wrote: post #120

Lots of interesting debates in this thread. I think it is worth placing writing/coding tasks into two buckets. Are you producing? Or are you learning? For example, I have zero qualms about relying on AI at work to write progress reports and code up some scripts. I know I can do it myself but why would I? I spent many years in college learning to read and write and code. AI makes me at least 2x more efficient at my jo…

I used to have dozens of phone numbers memorized. Once I got a cell phone I forgot everyone's number. I don't even know the phone number of my own mother. I don't want to lose my ability to think. I don't want to become intellectually dependent on AI in the slightest. I've been programming for over a decade without AI and I don't suddenly need it now.

well true to your name you are reducing it to a boolean dilemma

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#127

Post by casey2 »

dmonitor wrote: post #84
Der_Einzige wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Math class has no place without calculators. You're there to learn how to do math in the real world, not how to do math in a contrived world where we pretend that the ability to do calculations isn't ubiquitous. There are almost certainly more calculator capable devices on earth than people today. Ludditism is the human death drive expressed in a particularly toxic fashion.

When speaking of Math class, are you ignoring everything up to pre-calculus or do you think everything from addition flashcards, times tables, and long division is useless? I'd argue those exercises are invaluable. Seeing two numbers and just knowing the sum is always faster than plugging into a calculator.

This is the same fallacy that people make when they learn a new language, so they pick up anki spend a ton of time on it and most burn out, some don't, but neither see any real benefits greater than if they just spent that time on learning the language. The fallacy comes from the fact the goal of learning isn't to finish problems quickly, but to understand what is trying to be said or taught.

For example you claim that addition flashcards and times tables are invaluable, but you don't specify a base, in base 2 you have 4 addition flashcards, in base 100 you have 10,000, clearly understanding addition isn't related to the base, but flashcards increase as base increases, thus there is a relation, implying of course that understanding addition isn't related to the number of addition flashcards you understand. Oh but of course they aren't invaluable in understanding addition, they are invaluable in understanding concepts that use addition, cause ... why exactly? You saved 1 second finishing the problem that you may have understood before you completed that addition step? You didn't have to "context switch" by using a calculator? Students who don't know the sum often give unused name and go back at the end of the problem and solve it later. This behavior is of course discouraged since students can't understand variables until much later if ever and not knowing something you were taught represents the failure of the student and thus the teacher, school, government and society.

Infinitely better is learning from someone who speaks the language. A 30 minute solo tutoring session once a week for a month, in a no distraction environment (aside from a snack), even just working through homework, is more than enough for most students to go from Fs to As for multiple years.

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#128

Post by cmontella »

dmonitor wrote: post #84
Der_Einzige wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Math class has no place without calculators. You're there to learn how to do math in the real world, not how to do math in a contrived world where we pretend that the ability to do calculations isn't ubiquitous. There are almost certainly more calculator capable devices on earth than people today. Ludditism is the human death drive expressed in a particularly toxic fashion.

When speaking of Math class, are you ignoring everything up to pre-calculus or do you think everything from addition flashcards, times tables, and long division is useless? I'd argue those exercises are invaluable. Seeing two numbers and just knowing the sum is always faster than plugging into a calculator.

Personally I have dyscalculia and to this day I need to add on my fingers. Still, I ended up with degrees in physics and computer engineering. I don't think those things you mention are useless, but they never worked for me so I don't view them as invaluable.

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#129

Post by goatlover »

keeganpoppen wrote: post #126
booleandilemma wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to have dozens of phone numbers memorized. Once I got a cell phone I forgot everyone's number. I don't even know the phone number of my own mother. I don't want to lose my ability to think. I don't want to become intellectually dependent on AI in the slightest. I've been programming for over a decade without AI and I don't suddenly need it now.

well true to your name you are reducing it to a boolean dilemma

When is the Butlerian Jihad scheduled?

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#130

Post by lolinder »

booleandilemma wrote: post #123
wcfrobert wrote: post #120

Lots of interesting debates in this thread. I think it is worth placing writing/coding tasks into two buckets. Are you producing? Or are you learning? For example, I have zero qualms about relying on AI at work to write progress reports and code up some scripts. I know I can do it myself but why would I? I spent many years in college learning to read and write and code. AI makes me at least 2x more efficient at my jo…

I used to have dozens of phone numbers memorized. Once I got a cell phone I forgot everyone's number. I don't even know the phone number of my own mother. I don't want to lose my ability to think. I don't want to become intellectually dependent on AI in the slightest. I've been programming for over a decade without AI and I don't suddenly need it now.

It's more complicated than that—this trade-off between using a tool to extend our capabilities and developing our own muscles is as old as history. See the dialog between Theuth and Thamus about writing. Writing does have the effects that Socrates warned about, but it's also been an unequivocal net positive for humanity in general and for most humans in particular. For one thing, it's why we have a record of the debate about the merits of writing.

> O most ingenious Theuth, the parent or inventor of an art is not always the best judge of the utility or inutility of his own inventions to the users of them. And in this instance, you who are the father of letters, from a paternal love of your own children have been led to attribute to them a quality which they cannot have; for this discovery of yours will create forgetfulness in the learners' souls, because they will not use their memories; they will trust to the external written characters and not remember of themselves. The specific which you have discovered is an aid not to memory, but to reminiscence, and you give your disciples not truth, but only the semblance of truth; they will be hearers of many things and will have learned nothing; they will appear to be omniscient and will generally know nothing; they will be tiresome company, having the show of wisdom without the reality.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1636/1636-h/1636-h.htm

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