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A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

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Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does that matter? LLMs are going to be increasingly important tools, so it's valuable for educators to help students understand how to use them well. If you choose to exclude modern tools in your teaching to avoid disadvantaging those who don't want to use them, you disadvantage all the students who do want to use them. To put it another way, modern high school level math classes disadvantage students who want to…

I disagree. I see an LLM as less calculator and more as cheating. I think there's a lot of value in creating something entirely yourself without having an LLM spit out a mean solution for you to start from. LLMs have their place and maybe even somewhere in schools but the more you automate the hard parts of tasks, the less people value the struggle of actually learning something.

FWIW I teach upper level courses.

I see LLMs as almost sufficiently advanced compilers. You could say the same thing about gcc or even standard libraries. "Why back in my day we wrote our own hash maps while walking uphill both ways! Kids these days just import a lib and they don't learn anything!"

They are still learning, just at a higher level of abstraction.

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#102

I was talking to a teacher today that works with me at length about the impact of AI LLM models are having now when considering student's attitude towards learning. When I was young, I refused to learn geography because we had map applications. I could just look it up. I did the same for anything I could, offload the cognitive overhead to something better -- I think this is something we all do consciously or not. Tha…

How did the people who wrote the LLM and associated software do it when they had no such thing to "just look it up"?

Stackoverflow/stack exchange was a proto-LLM. Basically the same thing but 1-2 day latency for replies.

In 20 years we'll be able to tell this in a stereotypically old geezer way: "You kids have it easy, back in my day we had to wait for an actual human to reply to our daft questions.. and sometimes nobody would bother at all!"

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I teach at the university level, and I just expect more from my students. Instead of implementing data structures like we did when I was in school, something ChatGPT is very good at; my students are building systems, something ChatGPT has more trouble with. Instead of paper exams asking students "find the bug" or "implement a short function", they get a takehome exam where they have to write tests, integrate their pr…

Wouldn't it be unfair towards the students who want to learn without LLMs?

They're allowed to use whatever tools they want. But they have to meet higher standards in my classroom because more is going to be expected of them when they graduate. What would be unfair is if I don't prepare them for the expectations they're going to have to meet.

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#104
post #62

I actually think that this is the most important part of the article: > Similarly, it’s important to be open about how you use ChatGPT. The simplest way to do this is to generate shareable links and include them in your bibliography . By proactively giving your professors a way to audit your use of AI, you signal your commitment to academic integrity and demonstrate that you’re using it not as a shortcut to avoid doi…

> Would it be a viable solution for teachers to ask everyone to do this? Like a mandatory part of the homework? And grade it? Just a random thought...

To ask everyone to use ChatGPT, or to ask everyone to document their use of ChatGPT? I don't think the former is reasonable unless it's specifically the point of the class, and I believe that the latter is already done (by requirements to cite sources), though, as often happens, rapid technological developments mean that people don't think of ChatGPT as a source that they are required to cite like any other.

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of them are from Russia/Europe/China, at least the most successful implementers. My guess is that at least Russia/China will continue with the traditional education while watching with glee that the West is dumbing itself down even further.

By what means will -they- avoid hitting the same issues? Neither Russia nor China have magic detectors for is-this-essay-written-by-AI either.

They have the political power to do this: https://smex.org/algeria-another-year-another-exam-shutdown/

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#106
post #62

I actually think that this is the most important part of the article: > Similarly, it’s important to be open about how you use ChatGPT. The simplest way to do this is to generate shareable links and include them in your bibliography . By proactively giving your professors a way to audit your use of AI, you signal your commitment to academic integrity and demonstrate that you’re using it not as a shortcut to avoid doi…

I’ve seen a lot of places that require students to reference their ChatGPT use — and I think it is wrong headed. Because it is not a source to cite! But, sharing links for helping teachers understand your prompting is great

> I’ve seen a lot of places that require students to reference their ChatGPT use — and I think it is wrong headed. Because it is not a source to cite!

Why is it not a source? I think that it is not if "source" means "repository of truth," but I don't think that's the only valid meaning of "source."

For example, if I were reporting on propaganda, then I think that I could cite actual propaganda as a source, even though it is not a repository of truth. Now maybe that doesn't count because the propaganda is serving as a true record of untrue statements, but couldn't I also cite a source for a fictional story, that is untrue but that I used as inspiration? In the same way, it seems to me that I could cite ChatGPT as a source that helped me to shape and formulate my thoughts, even if it did not tell me any facts, or at least if I independently checked the 'facts' that it asserted.

That's "the devil's I," by the way; I am long past writing school essays. Although, of course, proper attribution is appropriate long past school days, and, indeed, as an academic researcher, I do try my best to attribute people who helped me to come up with an idea, even if the idea itself is nominally mine.

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#107
post #99

I was talking to a teacher today that works with me at length about the impact of AI LLM models are having now when considering student's attitude towards learning. When I was young, I refused to learn geography because we had map applications. I could just look it up. I did the same for anything I could, offload the cognitive overhead to something better -- I think this is something we all do consciously or not. Tha…

> When I was young, I refused to learn geography because we had map applications. I could just look it up. I did the same for anything I could, offload the cognitive overhead to something better -- I think this is something we all do consciously or not. This is certainly useful to a point, and I don't recommend memorizing a lot of trivia, but it's easy to go too far with it. Having a basic mental model about many asp…

Helpful in terms of what? Understanding some forced meme? "Force this meme so you can understand this other forced meme." is not education it's indoctrination. And even if you wanted to, for some unknown reason, understand the article you can look at a (changing and disputed) map as the parent said.

This is the opposite of deep knowledge, this is API knowledge at best.

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I teach at the university level, and I just expect more from my students. Instead of implementing data structures like we did when I was in school, something ChatGPT is very good at; my students are building systems, something ChatGPT has more trouble with. Instead of paper exams asking students "find the bug" or "implement a short function", they get a takehome exam where they have to write tests, integrate their pr…

I also teach in a university. There are two concepts: teaching with the AI, and teaching against it. At first, I want my students to gain a strong grasp of the basics, so I teach “against” it - warnings for cheating, etc. This semester, I’m also teaching “with” it. Write an algorithm that finds the cheapest way to build roads to every one of a set of cities, given costs for each street segment. I tell them to test it…

Yeah! Computer science students can do more "science" with the LLM. Before they spend all their time just writing and debugging. Instructors are happy if students can just write code that compiles.

When every student can write code that compiles, then you can ask them to write good code. Fast code. Robust code. Measure it, characterize it, compare it.

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#109
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I got chatgpt (gpt4o) to write me a very basic json parser once (and a gltf parser). Although it was very basic and lacking any error checking, it did what i asked it (although not in one go, i had to refine my questions multiple times).

Chatgpt is great for writing regular expressions by the way.

I've been using it to debug issues with config files and stuff. I just provide all the config files and error log to Chatgpt and it give a few possibilities which I fix or confirm is not an issue. If it still fails, I send the updated config files and error logs and get a new reply and repeat.

Re: A Student's Guide to Writing with ChatGPT

#110
post #85

I was talking to a teacher today that works with me at length about the impact of AI LLM models are having now when considering student's attitude towards learning. When I was young, I refused to learn geography because we had map applications. I could just look it up. I did the same for anything I could, offload the cognitive overhead to something better -- I think this is something we all do consciously or not. Tha…

I'm not sure I understand the geography point - maps and indexes have been around for hundreds of years - what did the app add to make it not worthwhile learning geography?

geolocation, search, path/route finding.

I don't really care to memorize (which was most of the coursework) things which I can just easily look up. Maybe geography in the south was different than how it was taught elsewhere though.

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