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The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

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Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#461

Post by walterbell »

WillAdams wrote: post #457
walterbell wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like other cases were ongoing even in 2002, https://www.cleveland19.com/story/1045614/ohio-supreme-court...

That's quite a different thing though --- this was not a matter of funding (save that there wasn't money set aside to send students who didn't get a college degree with their high school to college after graduation) but of how the school was structured and how students were taught.

That 1960s court ruling would be worth reading, to see how it was rationalized, and for discovery of related legal cases. LexisNexis or an LLM might be able to find it.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#462

Post by WillAdams »

walterbell wrote: post #461
WillAdams wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite a different thing though --- this was not a matter of funding (save that there wasn't money set aside to send students who didn't get a college degree with their high school to college after graduation) but of how the school was structured and how students were taught.

That 1960s court ruling would be worth reading, to see how it was rationalized, and for discovery of related legal cases. LexisNexis or an LLM might be able to find it.

The court case should have been late 70s, early 80s --- as it was explained to me, it was ruled as unfair that some children got a college education, while others who graduated from the same school had to pay for college

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#463

Post by human_person »

smeej wrote: post #309
donatj wrote: post #10

I work in EdTech, I have for a very long time now, and the problem I have seen is no one in education is willing to ACTUALLY let kids learn at their own level. The promise of EdTech was that kids could learn where they are. A kid who's behind can actually continue to learn rather than being left behind. A kid who's ahead can be nurtured. We had this. It worked well, in my opinion at least, and the number of complaint…

They're not just banded into a range based on their grade. They're banded into a grade based on their age, even though "being within a year of the same age as somebody" becomes essentially meaningless as soon as you're out of school.

Yes but that’s because you (mostly) stop physically growing once you are out of school. Banded within a year is meaningless for adults, a 25 yr old isn’t that different than a 30 year old but a 5 year old and a 10 year old are distinctly different. They are at different points in their development physically, emotionally and mentally. They socialize differently and have different needs. I’m not saying they can’t interact but there is some value in keeping children together by developmental stage and developmental stage is fairly age specific.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#464

Post by in_cahoots »

dxbydt wrote: post #227
Afton wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it is less about "keeping top kids down" and more about "let's use our very scarce resources helping the bottom kids". Put that way it seems less malicious, and more like probably the right thing to do over all, while still being extremely frustrating if you are, or are the parent of, a 'top kid'. I know that in Seattle, I've been very frustrated with all the talk and promise of our school to provide enri…

> "let's use our very scarce resources helping the bottom kids" So why does the richest country on the planet have "very scarce resources" only when it comes to educating its kids ? Of course, that very same public school has a stadium that is easily several times larger than facilities provided for Olympic level athletes in a poor country like India. That same school has a music program with a huge ballroom, recordi…

Which poor public schools have any of those amenities? Most of the schools I’ve seen are in old buildings, with no air conditioning. The fancy ones may have a space for the band and a theater, while the poorer ones barely even have a playground. I’ve never seen a school with a recording studio, let alone a ballroom.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#465

Post by sangnoir »

com2kid wrote: post #398
sangnoir wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another theory goes that we should provide more resources to the best and brightest students so that they go on to become great leaders and experts in their fields and then improve society for everyone. I'd call it "trickle down" theory. Or "horse-and-sparrow theory" (feeding a horse a huge amount of oats results in some of the feed passing through for lucky sparrows to eat)

This has been the strategy used by families around the world for thousands of years. Have some kids, pick the one that seems like they'll be the most successful, put all of the family's limited resources into that one kid. If that kid goes on to become successful, they are expected to help lift up the rest of the family. Another view is that I've paid back in taxes alone, many multiples of what my education cost the…

Barrels of ink have been used to debunk various flavors of Social Darwinism by better thinkers and writers than I.

I wouldn't commit a kid who struggles with math in 3rd grade to a life in the trades. I suppose HN has an over-represention of former gifted student commenters- but being intelligent doesn't make one better than others, or better suited for greater expectations, more deserving of resources, or more likely to succeed. Intelligence is just one aspect out of the many you can measure a human by - resilience, resourcefulness, grit, propensity to self-destruction, proneness to addictions, self-delusion, confidence, being an insufferable dick, laziness, are among the things I've seen people exhibit to their own detriment (or success) - regardless of what their baseline intelligence was. Society does better when it nurtures all the positives, and not just putting all eggs in the "very intelligent" basket.

The smartest students I knew are doing very mundane jobs that can be (and are) done by far less smarter folk - the one in academia is trying to leave. I'm less smart, but I pay more on taxes than most of them - one exception is the executive at a dating app. She's probably a genius as she never had to study at all: but that's not exactly a role that moves society forward, is it?

Edit: oh, and Elon Musk was a B student.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#466

Post by chongli »

sangnoir wrote: post #465
com2kid wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been the strategy used by families around the world for thousands of years. Have some kids, pick the one that seems like they'll be the most successful, put all of the family's limited resources into that one kid. If that kid goes on to become successful, they are expected to help lift up the rest of the family. Another view is that I've paid back in taxes alone, many multiples of what my education cost the…

Barrels of ink have been used to debunk various flavors of Social Darwinism by better thinkers and writers than I. I wouldn't commit a kid who struggles with math in 3rd grade to a life in the trades. I suppose HN has an over-represention of former gifted student commenters- but being intelligent doesn't make one better than others, or better suited for greater expectations, more deserving of resources, or more likel…

being intelligent doesn't make one better than others

The only issue here is with the attitude that a career in the trades is somehow inferior to getting a degree. It is not. I have many friends and family who work in the trades. They are intelligent, hard-working, resourceful people who take tremendous pride in the quality of their work. They both produce and repair useful things (houses, cars, factories, and countless other pieces of equipment). They are the backbone of our society.

They also happen to earn a lot more money than many other people I know who have degrees and work those "mundane jobs" you mentioned. Why? Because there's a huge shortage of labour in the trades and people who enter that career have far more bargaining power than they did back in the early-mid 20th century. It's also reflected in the way we simply don't build the way we used to. China built an incredible high speed rail network all over their country in just a few decades at minimal cost. The US can't even manage to build one high speed link between San Francisco and LA without spending more than the GDP of most countries on the project while facing countless delays.

It's one of our greatest shames that we in the West have developed such an elitist culture that we look down on the people who build things.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#467

Post by com2kid »

sangnoir wrote: post #465
com2kid wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been the strategy used by families around the world for thousands of years. Have some kids, pick the one that seems like they'll be the most successful, put all of the family's limited resources into that one kid. If that kid goes on to become successful, they are expected to help lift up the rest of the family. Another view is that I've paid back in taxes alone, many multiples of what my education cost the…

Barrels of ink have been used to debunk various flavors of Social Darwinism by better thinkers and writers than I. I wouldn't commit a kid who struggles with math in 3rd grade to a life in the trades. I suppose HN has an over-represention of former gifted student commenters- but being intelligent doesn't make one better than others, or better suited for greater expectations, more deserving of resources, or more likel…

> I wouldn't commit a kid who struggles with math in 3rd grade to a life in the trades.

Students should be re-evaluated every year. I've been at the bottom of classes and the top of classes in the same subject!

Also as others have pointed out, please stop crapping on the trades. I've met plumbers who are damn good at math calculations (needed for complex hydroponic heating systems!). Not to mention plenty of people in the trades learn to run their own businesses, with all the different skills that requires.

> but being intelligent doesn't make one better than others, or better suited for greater expectations, more deserving of resources, or more likely to succeed.

I didn't say any of that.

I said that right now schools are allocating 0 resources to students who are gifted, which is just as messed up as allocating 0 resources to students who need extra help. And as a reminder a child can be in both groups at the same time.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#468

Post by sangnoir »

chongli wrote: post #466
sangnoir wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Barrels of ink have been used to debunk various flavors of Social Darwinism by better thinkers and writers than I. I wouldn't commit a kid who struggles with math in 3rd grade to a life in the trades. I suppose HN has an over-represention of former gifted student commenters- but being intelligent doesn't make one better than others, or better suited for greater expectations, more deserving of resources, or more likel…

being intelligent doesn't make one better than others The only issue here is with the attitude that a career in the trades is somehow inferior to getting a degree. It is not. I have many friends and family who work in the trades. They are intelligent, hard-working, resourceful people who take tremendous pride in the quality of their work. They both produce and repair useful things (houses, cars, factories, and countl…

> The only issue here is with the attitude that a career in the trades is somehow inferior to getting a degree

I made no such claim - the word I used (commit) was chosen with care, and is neutral.

> They also happen to earn a lot more money than many other people I know who have degrees and work those "mundane jobs" you mentioned.

While trades are a decent choice; let's not overly romanticize them. The ones making decent money are those who are self-employed (basically effectively consultants) and those in unions with a monopoly (like the longshoremen). The working stiffs aren't doing that great, especially if the work is hard on the body, then it means their career is going to be much shorter than the average desk jockey, and they will have considerable health costs later.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#469

Post by sangnoir »

com2kid wrote: post #467
sangnoir wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Barrels of ink have been used to debunk various flavors of Social Darwinism by better thinkers and writers than I. I wouldn't commit a kid who struggles with math in 3rd grade to a life in the trades. I suppose HN has an over-represention of former gifted student commenters- but being intelligent doesn't make one better than others, or better suited for greater expectations, more deserving of resources, or more likel…

> I wouldn't commit a kid who struggles with math in 3rd grade to a life in the trades. Students should be re-evaluated every year. I've been at the bottom of classes and the top of classes in the same subject! Also as others have pointed out, please stop crapping on the trades. I've met plumbers who are damn good at math calculations (needed for complex hydroponic heating systems!). Not to mention plenty of people i…

> Also as others have pointed out, please stop crapping on the trades

I never "crapped" on the trades like you imagined I did, they are a perfectly fine career choice.

Re: The EdTech Revolution Has Failed

#470

Post by red_admiral »

johndhi wrote: post #323
red_admiral wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sex education? Not in the sense of the kids watching porn, but learning about contraception and STIs and that kind of thing.

fair enough but is that really the reason edtech has failed?

IMO, EdTech has failed because it's BS. I'd sooner buy GameStop stock than the next EdTech-in-schools startup. (EdX, Khan etc. are playing in a different market, and doing ok.)

But sex ed and the like is definitely something that gets parents upset, as is the general concept of "they're teaching my child things they're not telling me about", whether that's critical theory, sex ed, evolution, or anything with the word gender in it.

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