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Mitochondria Are Alive

asimov.press

171–180 of 412 posts

Re: Mitochondria Are Alive

#171
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just wondering why we always see pop-sci mitochondria content but no ribosome videos. I think it's the catchy nickname "powerhouse of the cell." Ribosomes don't have a catch nickname so they get a lot less content produced about them. If I was a highschool biology teacher I'd probably call them "The assembly line of life." That would stick in people's minds I bet.

Then go ahead. Make those videos. Sell that vision. There's no one stopping you except you.

I don't get the adversarial tone about this.

My intention in asking the question isn't to create animosity. I'm just curious why the thing that I've observed is a thing.

Re: Mitochondria Are Alive

#172
post #158

Mitochondria are why I’m a Rare Earther. In Earth’s history, mitochondrial endosymbiosis occurred once. Without that you don’t have the energy budget for complex life. Moreover, there may be a narrow window where it can happen: modern microbiology has defences and selection pressures that it make inhospitable to the hobbling chimeræ the first mitochondrial cells would have been. Until mitochondria, the emergence of l…

How do we know it only happened once? Maybe it happened multiple times but only one version survived while the others were outcompeted?

> How do we know it only happened once?

We don't. But we know we can't replicate it, have never observed it, don't seem to find half-assed attempts at it in the wild and that there weren't multiple competing chemistries that found themselves co-existing, there was one.

Re: Mitochondria Are Alive

#173

Mitochondria are why I’m a Rare Earther. In Earth’s history, mitochondrial endosymbiosis occurred once. Without that you don’t have the energy budget for complex life. Moreover, there may be a narrow window where it can happen: modern microbiology has defences and selection pressures that it make inhospitable to the hobbling chimeræ the first mitochondrial cells would have been. Until mitochondria, the emergence of l…

In addition to what others have pointed out (chloroplasts), I think this makes another mistake. Although only the mitochondria and chloroplast lineages remain, it is possible it happened other times but those lineages were out-competed, for whatever reasons, and are now extinct.

> it is possible it happened other times but those lineages were out-competed, for whatever reasons, and are now extinct

Chlorophyll probably outcompeted retinal [1]. (The stuff in our eyes.)

The reduced form of my claim is that mitochondrial life so freakishly outcompetes its competitors as to be in a class of its own. Which still yields a rare Earth, albeit a first among many.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_Earth_hypothesis

Re: Mitochondria Are Alive

#174
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that kind of mixing up the chain of causation? Without a winner, a lottery cannot exist (or at least, at p=0, it's nonsensical). That doesn't automatically imply there are a lot of winners, however.

I think what I am trying to say is consciousness (life) is reality. And so all kind of planetary experiences can exist inside consciousness as it's contents since consciousness is capable of generating all kind of content. There is nothing specific about our consciousness that makes it unique to earth.

You are mistaking the map for the territory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation

Re: Mitochondria Are Alive

#175

I read the article waiting for an answer to the question "in what operational sense does this matter?" but it never arrived. The question posed is whether we consider mitochondria to be "alive". It's just a word, who cares. What do we do differently given this assumption?

I was equally dismissive of the actual importance of philosophizing whether mitochondrias are alive or not, but this paragraph made me change my mind.

> It seems Mitochondria are not bound to their host cell; they can travel between different cells. Although different species carry distinct mitochondria, experiments show that mitochondria from one species can be transferred to another.

> In 1997, scientists isolated mitochondria from chimpanzees and gorillas and showed that they are naturally internalized and integrated into human cells. Notably, the addition of external mitochondria even showed therapeutic benefits in heart failure and spinal cord injury. Thus, the potential niche that mitochondria can live in is greater than their effective niche.

So it seems like they are more symbiote than organelle, that's amazing.

Re: Mitochondria Are Alive

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what I am trying to say is consciousness (life) is reality. And so all kind of planetary experiences can exist inside consciousness as it's contents since consciousness is capable of generating all kind of content. There is nothing specific about our consciousness that makes it unique to earth.

You are mistaking the map for the territory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation

Can you explain in simple terms? I see physical reality as almost redundant and consciousness seems to be able to do everything.

Re: Mitochondria Are Alive

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each grain of sand on earth represents 1 billion planets in the universe. https://www.reddit.com/r/spaceporn/comments/1af4prs/if_you_w...

There are 100 million times more bacteria in the ocean than there are stars in the universe. Which really should tell people how rare the development of mitochondria was if it has only happened once here.

It didn't necessarily happen only once; maybe we were left with the most successful instance.

Re: Mitochondria Are Alive

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are mistaking the map for the territory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map%E2%80%93territory_relation

Can you explain in simple terms? I see physical reality as almost redundant and consciousness seems to be able to do everything.

From the first paragraph of the linked article:

"Mistaking the map for the territory is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone confuses the semantics of a term with what it represents. Polish-American scientist and philosopher Alfred Korzybski remarked that "the map is not the territory" and that "the word is not the thing", encapsulating his view that an abstraction derived from something, or a reaction to it, is not the thing itself. Korzybski held that many people do confuse maps with territories, that is, confuse conceptual models of reality with reality itself."

Re: Mitochondria Are Alive

#179
This article is framed as if there is something novel and profound here, but the "aliveness" of mitochondria is simply a matter of how we choose to apply the label "life" - a human linguistic construct that exists independently of the biological phenomena. This is not a new discussion - science has been considering this question for many decades, just as it has with viruses. These all come down to arguments about semantics and don't add anything to the science.

Mitochondria are fascinating and there is still a huge amount to learn about them but they are totally dependent on the cell's machinery. Most of their genes, the code for their structure, are in the nuclear DNA. A glaring omission if you are trying to make the case that mitochondria are independently living. My heart can exist independently of me, and be transplanted into other people, but does it mean that it is alive?

The implication of the whole article is that there something we have missed. This really isn't the case. Lynn Margulis's endosymbiotic origin of mitochondria was challenged by many, and it did spark a scientific debate - that's how science works. She won the argument comprehensively decades ago and is well established science. There have been many such endosymbiotic events in the history of life - there are subfields of evolutionary biology that study these processes.

Re: Mitochondria Are Alive

#180
post #139

Mitochondria are why I’m a Rare Earther. In Earth’s history, mitochondrial endosymbiosis occurred once. Without that you don’t have the energy budget for complex life. Moreover, there may be a narrow window where it can happen: modern microbiology has defences and selection pressures that it make inhospitable to the hobbling chimeræ the first mitochondrial cells would have been. Until mitochondria, the emergence of l…

Like other gradients (heat, pressure, chemical) it might seem rare, the gradient guides its occurrence. A power efficiency gradient was going to happen eventually, accident or otherwise.

Yup. That it happened isn't by chance, but the particular instance being the one to happen & dominate is by chance.
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