Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Sustainable Web Interest Group Is Formed

w3.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 121 posts

Re: Sustainable Web Interest Group Is Formed

#91

Post by skydhash »

CuriousCosmic wrote: post #89
troupo wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reasons: - Browsers don't "talk" any other language but JS - All browser APIs are exposed through JS only - You can't manipulate DOM except through JS - You can't do "fancy web flourish" without manipulating DOM. If you target Canvas/WebGL/WebGPU, you'd have to first create your entire graphics lib + flourish + font handling and rendering + accessibility + ... from scratch. And load all that on every page load - Any…

> - Browsers don't "talk" any other language but JS I'm not looking for browsers to talk with any language. I'm looking for some DSL that directly maps to the 3 layout languages that browsers understand (i.e. HTML + CSS + SVG). Not anything turing complete at runtime but rather a sane way of describing a webpage layout with fancy styling, UI elements, transitions, and animations but without dealing with the pain that…

The web spec is so complex because it serves different masters. You either making a web page, a web app, or some hybrid of the two. And there’s different constraints for each. And you will have to choose which subset to target if you were the one building that modern language.

Re: Sustainable Web Interest Group Is Formed

#92

Post by Drakim »

ori_b wrote: post #82
eadmund wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The client-side efficiency problem is JavaScript; perhaps the server-side efficiency problem is Python?

The server side efficiency problem is running advertising.

The some of the brightest minds of our generation has been wasted on optimizing how to deliver personalized advertisements in front of as many eyeballs as possible, and the true tragedy is that they didn't have a more efficient language than JavaScript to do it.

Re: Sustainable Web Interest Group Is Formed

#93

Post by neckro23 »

rozap wrote: post #25
longtimelistnr wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twitter regularly changes the location of source videos because as X they now charge for the ability to download them directly. I've also noticed on iOS, if you attempt to screen record a video the app essentially crashes or glitches the video player.

As with many things, the solution is ffmpeg. After I got that upsell thing when I tried to download a video about a week ago, I found the correct ffmpeg incantation, mostly out of spite for Twitter. If you find the m3u8 request in devtools on a tweet, you can use something like the following: ffmpeg -i 'https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1846357395959615488/pu/pl/ecNx-sTzYA9doHYO.m3u8' -analyzeduration 5G -codec:a…

You probably get the same result in the end, but yt-dlp can also do this if you point it at the m3u8 file.

(Actually I just checked and it also supports downloading Twitter videos directly.)

Re: Sustainable Web Interest Group Is Formed

#94

Post by userbinator »

austin-cheney wrote: post #58
userbinator wrote: post #35

It's a good effort, but a lot of this stuff reads more like the usual bureaucratic virtue-signaling that's popular these days. All that's needed to drastically decrease energy use is to just take late-90s/early 2000s web technology and push it to its limits. Zero JS unless absolutely necessary. Two days ago I was watching the election results on various sites, along with many others. Some sites just didn't work in a…

How do you define absolutely necessary? Shitty JS frameworks written by incompetent people are absolutely necessary to the revenue of advertising media.

We had banner ads back then too, without the JS.

Re: Sustainable Web Interest Group Is Formed

#95

Post by CuriousCosmic »

skydhash wrote: post #91
CuriousCosmic wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Browsers don't "talk" any other language but JS I'm not looking for browsers to talk with any language. I'm looking for some DSL that directly maps to the 3 layout languages that browsers understand (i.e. HTML + CSS + SVG). Not anything turing complete at runtime but rather a sane way of describing a webpage layout with fancy styling, UI elements, transitions, and animations but without dealing with the pain that…

The web spec is so complex because it serves different masters. You either making a web page, a web app, or some hybrid of the two. And there’s different constraints for each. And you will have to choose which subset to target if you were the one building that modern language.

Yep. Again, I'm not looking for a perfect global solution.

Just some domain specific language for writing sane low-to-no-js web pages or parts of web pages without having to manually fiddle with HTML or CSS in any real amount.

Static site generators honestly get me a lot of the way there but those are unfortunately template based which means any significant customisation requires dealing with the HTML and CSS rather than being able to just describe the layout and behavior I want.

Honestly I'd just write the compiler/lang myself if I didn't hate frontend so much.

Re: Sustainable Web Interest Group Is Formed

#97

Post by crabbone »

austin-cheney wrote: post #85
crabbone wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Google does a lot more than Web... so, it's hard to tell what you are seeing in those datacenters. It could be that specifically next to where you live is a GCP datacenter or whatever other division in Google that has nothing to do with Web (Google has its fingers in cyber-security, television, maps, cellular phones, general electronics, ML and much, much more...) So, measuring their power consumption isn't goi…

Facebook. Its estimated at 22 million sqft.

It's the same thing honestly. Facebook has a boatload of projects that have nothing to do with Web. They probably spend more on their ML stuff than any other department in terms of infrastructure / resources.

At one point I ran across the statistic that said that Facebook's internal network had more IP addresses than the entire public Internet. Maybe whoever claimed that exaggerated, but all the Web stuff Facebook has to offer doesn't need even a single percent of IP addresses of the entire Internet.

Also, as far as I know, Facebook has its own h/w ambitions. It builds its own h/w and equips its own datacenters with it. While this is definitely not their main business, h/w development is a lot more resource-intensive than s/w development when it comes to datcenter usage (when it's about developing datacenter h/w).

Re: Sustainable Web Interest Group Is Formed

#99

Post by austin-cheney »

Drakim wrote: post #92
ori_b wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The server side efficiency problem is running advertising.

The some of the brightest minds of our generation has been wasted on optimizing how to deliver personalized advertisements in front of as many eyeballs as possible, and the true tragedy is that they didn't have a more efficient language than JavaScript to do it.

It really doesn't matter. Advertisement is the debt collection of software. Its this shit nobody wants to do. As a result these people tend to make more, be pampered, and the output is generally still garbage and the developers are still depressed. Compare that with gaming where the developers are worked to death and generally underpaid, but they love what they do and have a great time building amazing things.

Re: Sustainable Web Interest Group Is Formed

#100

Post by austin-cheney »

crabbone wrote: post #97
austin-cheney wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook. Its estimated at 22 million sqft.

It's the same thing honestly. Facebook has a boatload of projects that have nothing to do with Web. They probably spend more on their ML stuff than any other department in terms of infrastructure / resources. At one point I ran across the statistic that said that Facebook's internal network had more IP addresses than the entire public Internet. Maybe whoever claimed that exaggerated, but all the Web stuff Facebook ha…

That completely misses the point. The point is about lowering electricity consumption.
Post reply on HN