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Social Security: The Biggest Ponzi Scheme on Earth (By Milton Friedman)

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Re: Social Security: The Biggest Ponzi Scheme on Earth (By Milton Friedman)

#81

Post by tptacek »

nihilocrat wrote: post #79
alecco wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current group on the receiving end did pay. Noam Chomsky wrote a great essay on this non-issue: http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20050601.htm (Hey, the guy's from MIT, don't down-vote me that much, please! ;)

Chomsky is a pretty hardline radical liberal, so it's fairly likely that an HN reader or two thinks what he writes is pure and utter garbage.

How do you at one point in a thread discuss how "liberal" is an ad hominem, and in another part of the thread dismiss someone as a "hardline radical liberal"?

Re: Social Security: The Biggest Ponzi Scheme on Earth (By Milton Friedman)

#82

Post by antiismist »

nihilocrat wrote: post #78
antiismist wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you are writing about the Heritage Foundation or "Conservatism": Milton Friedman is a classic liberal ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism ), so it's a strange vicarious ad hominem attack. His laissez-faire ideas have been extremely influential and have a stunning track record of success where they have been used.

You shouldn't act like terms exist in a vaccuum. Remember that the Republicans and Democrats were on completely different sides of the political spectrum less than a century ago. Classical liberalism is a doctrine stressing individual freedom and limited government. This includes the importance of human rationality, individual property rights, natural rights, the protection of civil liberties, individual freedom from…

I'm just saying that his idea here should not be evaluated by a comparison to a group of people that he isn't even a member of. I do like the two axis chart though.

Re: Social Security: The Biggest Ponzi Scheme on Earth (By Milton Friedman)

#83

Post by antiismist »

tptacek wrote: post #80
antiismist wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you are writing about the Heritage Foundation or "Conservatism": Milton Friedman is a classic liberal ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism ), so it's a strange vicarious ad hominem attack. His laissez-faire ideas have been extremely influential and have a stunning track record of success where they have been used.

I don't think you can, with any intellectual honesty, call Milton Friedman a "liberal" economist without pointing out that you're using a different definition of the term than the mainstream. If he's a "classic liberal", he's also an "anti-progressive".

Isn't that what I did by busting out with the wikipedia link?

Re: Social Security: The Biggest Ponzi Scheme on Earth (By Milton Friedman)

#84

Post by dantheman »

tptacek wrote: post #43
dantheman wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no such thing as a social security trust fund. The government uses that money to fund other programs and puts IOUs in there; that means when more are receiving than contributing there will be a massive tax burden on those contributing they get hit with both their normal SS tax, plus the taxes to cover the shortfall.

If there's no such thing as a social security trust fund --- in which case, Reagan and Greenspan's baby boomer FICA tax hike was a huge scam --- then there's no social security crisis. There's just a general budget issue. But in the general budget, Social Security is dwarfed both by other entitlement programs and by a host of other programs. If you don't believe in the Social Security trust fund, then we should be di…

Defense spending is a lot, but it is actually one of the few things that the federal government is supposed to do and it's only 20% of the federal budget whereas medicare and ss are at 60%

Re: Social Security: The Biggest Ponzi Scheme on Earth (By Milton Friedman)

#85

Post by dantheman »

tptacek wrote: post #40
dantheman wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't we let people live with their decisions? Obviously those who opt out have better things to do with their money @ least from thier pov?

Because pooling risk and providing a baseline standard of living helps everyone, not just the direct beneficiaries of entitlements; for instance, current entrepreneurs aren't paralyzed in steady corporate jobs out of fear that they will need to supplement their parents income to prevent them from eating cat food. Again: of course it is true that skilled investors can net a better return on their FICA dollars than Soc…

I'm still going to have to disagree. You are only looking at one side of the equation, those receiving the benefits and ignoring those who are harmed. How many companies go out of business because they can't compete due to these taxes, how much investment is lost/misdirected since an individual cannot decide where to invest their funds. I could have invested in a store in my neighborhood, but instead the money will be spent by someone in some other area. It's hard to know exactly what we're missing out on because of the massive amount of wealth redirection.

Re: Social Security: The Biggest Ponzi Scheme on Earth (By Milton Friedman)

#86

Post by tptacek »

antiismist wrote: post #83
tptacek wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you can, with any intellectual honesty, call Milton Friedman a "liberal" economist without pointing out that you're using a different definition of the term than the mainstream. If he's a "classic liberal", he's also an "anti-progressive".

Isn't that what I did by busting out with the wikipedia link?

No.

Re: Social Security: The Biggest Ponzi Scheme on Earth (By Milton Friedman)

#87

Post by tptacek »

dantheman wrote: post #85
tptacek wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because pooling risk and providing a baseline standard of living helps everyone, not just the direct beneficiaries of entitlements; for instance, current entrepreneurs aren't paralyzed in steady corporate jobs out of fear that they will need to supplement their parents income to prevent them from eating cat food. Again: of course it is true that skilled investors can net a better return on their FICA dollars than Soc…

I'm still going to have to disagree. You are only looking at one side of the equation, those receiving the benefits and ignoring those who are harmed. How many companies go out of business because they can't compete due to these taxes, how much investment is lost/misdirected since an individual cannot decide where to invest their funds. I could have invested in a store in my neighborhood, but instead the money will b…

I don't know how many businesses fail because of FICA taxes, but I'm not super sympathetic to the argument, since me and my partners make W2 payroll for a decent sized group of people, and we're doing OK. Relative to much of the industrialized world, the US has an attractive tax rate and an attractive standard of living.

What I do know is that prior to Social Security, young workers being a prisoner to the financial circumstances of their aging extended family was a real problem, and it's not one we think about that much anymore. So I'm pretty happy with that.

Re: Social Security: The Biggest Ponzi Scheme on Earth (By Milton Friedman)

#88

Post by tptacek »

dantheman wrote: post #84
tptacek wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's no such thing as a social security trust fund --- in which case, Reagan and Greenspan's baby boomer FICA tax hike was a huge scam --- then there's no social security crisis. There's just a general budget issue. But in the general budget, Social Security is dwarfed both by other entitlement programs and by a host of other programs. If you don't believe in the Social Security trust fund, then we should be di…

Defense spending is a lot, but it is actually one of the few things that the federal government is supposed to do and it's only 20% of the federal budget whereas medicare and ss are at 60%

That's not true. The OMB's own figures put Social Security at 20%, and Social Security is funded by a dedicated tax. Medicare is a much bigger problem.

Budget comparisons are also subject to both chicanery (playing around with what you consider a defense expenditure) and bias (Social Security is the largest monolithic expenditure in the budget, just like MadMenSeries2.mp4s.zip is the biggest single file on my filesystem, but a small fraction of what I'm spending my disk on).

Re: Social Security: The Biggest Ponzi Scheme on Earth (By Milton Friedman)

#89

Post by byrneseyeview »

tptacek wrote: post #46
byrneseyeview wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point: there should be interest.

Just like the interest you earn on your health insurance?

Insurance companies invest premium payments, mostly in fixed income, so one would expect the current interest rate to be a factor in the cost.

Re: Social Security: The Biggest Ponzi Scheme on Earth (By Milton Friedman)

#90

Post by [deleted] »

mattmaroon wrote: post #23
byrneseyeview wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government borrowing from SS is no different than them borrowing from the Chinese, either way it has to be repaid. I'd like to offer you an annuity. Here's how it works: you give me about 15% of your paycheck every year, and I spend the money on whatever I feel like. I replace it with a piece of paper that says "Dear Byrneseyeview: Please tender to the bearer -- Byrneseyeview -- an amount equal to the sum borrowe…

Here's 2 scenarios. a) Government borrows $4 trillion from the Chinese at 2% annually. b) Government borrows $4 trillion from Americans, by way of Social Security, at 2% annually. What's the difference in what the government owes after 10 years? Either way the government has to raise $4 trillion (plus interest) in taxes, borrow it, or print it to pay it off. Either way everyone is in the exact same boat, except in bo…

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