Live data from Hacker News

Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

arstechnica.com

661–670 of 682 posts

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#661
post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear - even though I say “Merkle Tree”, I am not saying the unhashed votes themselves would not be stored in it. The hashes are just to quickly verify integrity of the underlying data leaves (the actual votes people cast). The anonymity is done between registration and voting. There is a cryptographic mixer like Tornado Cash that is responsible for the unlinkability, by “tumbling” the tokens to anonymize…

> There is a cryptographic mixer like Tornado Cash that is responsible for the unlinkability, by “tumbling” the tokens to anonymize them while still making sure that each person voting legitimately had registered. This is not anonymity, it is pseudonimity, if the system then records "person in control of key K voted for X". Sure, it may be impossible to tell who is that person, unless they come out. But that person c…

No, it only gives a false sense of security, which is worse. Everything you are describing relies on trust in the people that build these systems, trust in the people that invent the algorithms, trust in the people that invent the maths, trust in the chosen parameters of the cryptographic systems, and so on. Literally none of what you are describing works if you don't trust in all of these people to be (a) honest, and (b) really really good at what they're doing.

Now it's getting a bit silly. Imagine saying about all the technology infrastructure we use daily, such as electricity and computers, that since they require "trust in the people who built these systems, trust in the people who invent the algorithms, maths, and parameters of the curves etc" therefore they are giving a "false sense of security". No! The math isn't just arbitrary, the people aren't just cobbling together a computer I happen to buy. There are literally standards bodies, scientific literature, audits and much more. There are entire ecosystems for error-correction. Otherwise, throw away your technology, you're trusting phone and computer vendors, you're trusting mathematicians with math, and scientists with science... and that's actually worse than living in a world where you fetch water yourself from the river. What? No, it's not.

If you're down to those kind of arguments, I and people like me would conclude that you're out of good ones, and we have a good solution after all.

A paper ballot system isn't great at all -- it is far too slow and expensive and frustrating to run an election, and voter turnout is low for traveling and standing in line -- and certainly it is not "proven secure enough in many thousands of elections". Many elections around the world are disputed, contested, insecure, and the ones you think are secure, are also contested (e.g. the 2020 election, the 2000 election, the 2016 election). You dismiss it in cases you like (US elections) and are happy for your politicians dispute it in cases you don't like (Venezuela) etc. Even if the Supreme Court of Venezuela weighs in, you wouldn't trust it. It's a canvas on which everyone can paint their own outcome, and claim the other side "stole" the election (as if their side didn't engage in similar shenanigans to cancel it out).

If we switched to electronic systems, verification would be so cheap that anyone could do it (as it is for, say, verifying files you downloaded from the Internet with a checksum, which wasn't always the case with previous technology such as analog-to-digital MoDeMs without cryptographic security) -- not only that but it would enable so many more applications. Imagine using Git version control without a SHA1 checksum, and just "trusting the system" to never flip a bit. Imagine not being able to use Merkle Trees for downloading files, verifying their integrity, etc. These things not only improve security and reliability at almost no cost, but enable a whole class of things that would be impossible with pen and paper. Seriously you don't see a difference between, say, BitTorrenting movies and Roman scribes copying into a clay pad? Oh, but we're trusting people who discovered electricity, invented general-purpose computers and the hash algorithms, what if they're trying to trick us and will finally rugpull us all in 2025? Alan Turing and John Von Neumann will have the last laugh as we'll all download the RickRoll files instead of the ones we want.

Nothing you are describing can prove anything. It all still relies on your claim that you were trying to vote X, but the system registered you as voting Y. It's your word against the system. You can be convinced yourself, but you can't 100% convince anyone else.

Not at all. If someone was able to record a signature that their voting gateway signed vote for X as vote for X, but then later that same service claimed they voted for Y, they are caught red-handed cryptographically signing with the private key two conflicting votes. You're equating that to some villagers telling some journalist on camera that they never voted. Ugh. One can be verified by anyone, the other is just hearsay by some journalist.

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#662
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m in the opposite scenario - my vote will not matter since my county/state is not close to 50/50. It’s a laughably depressing system. I think (without any supporting evidence) the national election system was designed to fit to the standards of transportation and communication 200+ years ago. It was actually feasible to vote per state then send one dude on horseback to DC to cast the vote for the whole state. That’…

Should there be no balance between state size? California always determining the president and ensuring Montana and Rhode Island are never campaigned in?

I am not convinced states should be the decider of president, rather than the people.

Besides, in your example, neither of those states matter anyway. Why should Pennsylvania be so important, merely because the electorate seems evenly split between the two major parties?

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just like all the issues with illegals and the border wall, which they don't seem to want to fix and make it impossible. How do you reconcile that with: Senate Republicans block border security bill as they campaign on border chaos ( May 24, 2024 ) Nearly every GOP senator, along with six Democrats, voted to filibuster a bipartisan bill designed to crack down on migration and reduce border crossings. The vote caps…

You really should read the bill. Our bills are never single subject and always have completely unrelated items in them. The title is also arbitrary marketing speak that is no indication of what the bill is intended to do. https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/436...

Even more so we should use AI and probe the actual contents of these bills seeing as they're all-encompassing. This is like a giant PR that includes changes to 23% of your system, touching everything from every level including config files.

I'll bet money that none of the changes are grouped into any sort of easy-to-digest format with cross-referencing and other mechanisms to make it easy for people to introspect it.

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#664
post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right - Bush "pressed for" Ukraine's membership, but he wasn't successful . And in fact Putin had executed (what he should have seen as) a successful containment strategy by that date, via purely diplomatic means. Sanity prevailed, reason prevailed -- but Putin invaded anyway. That's the key takeaway here. As to the other tangents, briefly: (1) No, the Georgia conflict was not "the same exact war". It bears a certain…

I am making that analogy, there are so many elements in common, and the analogy to other proxy wars like Yemen too. You could argue Brzezinski and CIA arming the mujahideen was also “purely defensive”, or Soviets arming the PLO a decade earlier was “purely defensive”. Both are nonsense, of course! https://washingtonmonthly.com/2021/09/01/how-jimmy-carter-st... https://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-…

You could argue Brzezinski and CIA arming the mujahideen was also “purely defensive”, or Soviets arming the PLO a decade earlier was “purely defensive”.

One could, but it'd be silly as you already know, and no one is doing that.

Hence, no analogy here.

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#665
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we talking about "Voter ID"? If so, isn't that being constantly derailed by the democrats? Just like all the issues with illegals and the border wall, which they don't seem to want to fix and make it impossible.

> Just like all the issues with illegals and the border wall, which they don't seem to want to fix and make it impossible. How do you reconcile that with: Senate Republicans block border security bill as they campaign on border chaos ( May 24, 2024 ) Nearly every GOP senator, along with six Democrats, voted to filibuster a bipartisan bill designed to crack down on migration and reduce border crossings. The vote caps…

Not even 3 or 4 months ago, I would have expected the responses to this message to all be 'yassss queen slay', despite the glaring fact that the 'bi-partison' bill just enshrined the current democrat-party policy into law, while ensuring it could only be challenged in a court they control.

I am happy to see that the entirety of responses are effectively 'lol, actually read the law it is a disaster'.

My heart grew 1 size today.

"What's curious is how people seem to fall for this and just accept what they're fed w/out looking into details." Pot, meet Kettle.

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#666

Electronic voting is a horrible idea. We should reform the voting system to something that doesn't require counting massive numbers of votes. But also, the idea of a president or prime minister is dumb. In fact, nobody needs a federal/national government. We should just have a mayor for each city or region and if they need to decide on something which affects the nation as a whole, the mayors of all cities/regions sh…

According to what I remember from government class in grade school, that was more or less what the Articles of Confederation established, and it didn’t work too well especially regarding interstate trade and organization of militant forces, largely due to state’s endless bickering.

Who is to judge that it didn't work better for the people? Maybe some occasional minor tensions and conflicts is worth it.

With a globalized coercive system as ours, we're headed for a mass extinction event.

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#667
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same guy has been running a $14.88 promotion for a month (14/88 is a recognised US far-right symbol: https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/1488 )

Do you also believe Walmart is marketing chocolate cookies to hate groups or is the price an unfortunate coincidence when they do it? https://www.walmart.com/ip/President-s-Choice-The-Decadent-C...

Appears as $14.83 to me...

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#668
post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am making that analogy, there are so many elements in common, and the analogy to other proxy wars like Yemen too. You could argue Brzezinski and CIA arming the mujahideen was also “purely defensive”, or Soviets arming the PLO a decade earlier was “purely defensive”. Both are nonsense, of course! https://washingtonmonthly.com/2021/09/01/how-jimmy-carter-st... https://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-…

You could argue Brzezinski and CIA arming the mujahideen was also “purely defensive”, or Soviets arming the PLO a decade earlier was “purely defensive”. One could, but it'd be silly as you already know, and no one is doing that. Hence, no analogy here.

Well, they shouldn't do it here either then. The analogy is quite deep since history repeats itself:

  CIA training paramilitaries against Russia/USSR
  Increasing the chances of Russia invading
  Giving ever more weapons to the "freedom fighters"
  Country ravaged and destroyed by war
  Lots of dead combatants & civilians (needlessly)


Of course the war in Ukraine is like other proxy wars (in Yemen, Afghanistan etc) and can be analyzed by comparing them. For example, Iran did the same with Houthis in Yemen, as US CIA did with far-right paramilitaries in Ukraine. If you call Putin an unelected dictator who bombs a neighboring country to maintain their influence and hegemony rather than let a rival take it over, then what do you call the Saudi monarchy doing that in Yemen? And now that country is ravaged by a decade of needless fighting in a proxy war. In any case, the Ukraine war is not a special snowflake, at all. It's very similar to many other proxy wars.

It's also a war in which Russia invades a country in an attept to bring it to the negotiating table to agree to permanently stop shelling two breakaway republics, very much like with Georgia, so we can see what happened in Georgia (i.e. Russia didn't continue to take over the country, at all) rather than invent fantasy scenarios that Russian orcs want to genocide all Ukrainians, or will go and take over the rest of Europe if they succeed in Ukraine, etc. It is quite reasonable to look at similar situations to infer what the motivations were. And it's NOT reasonable to say "it's all Putin" when every US ambassador said every Russian leader (including Medevedev with Georgia) would react the same way to the "red lines". 73% of the Russian public supports the Ukraine war just like 73% of the US public supported the Iraq war. Public support wars. Similarities matter, and they matter most of all because they help us understand how to prevent and end wars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War

For example with Georgia, despite all the similar motivations, and nearly the same actors in similar circumstances, the motivation to say "there is no analogy AT ALL, period, end of story" is that you can then claim Russia will be emboldened and continue its rampage further, if a peace agreement was reached. Most civilians want peace, and don't want carnage, so to justify continued carnage (resulting in 2 million dead civilians in Afghanistan, for instance), you need a narrative that is even worse than sending people to die in wars. So people bring up all kinds of claims (Russia will invade Europe if not stopped here etc.) So if a counterexample is brought up (e.g. Russia didn't continue past 1 week in Georgia) you have to shut it down very quickly. But the analogies are there, and the public's reactions on both sides is similar too:

https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/szfl96/when_the_so...

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#670
post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could argue Brzezinski and CIA arming the mujahideen was also “purely defensive”, or Soviets arming the PLO a decade earlier was “purely defensive”. One could, but it'd be silly as you already know, and no one is doing that. Hence, no analogy here.

Well, they shouldn't do it here either then. The analogy is quite deep since history repeats itself: CIA training paramilitaries against Russia/USSR Increasing the chances of Russia invading Giving ever more weapons to the "freedom fighters" Country ravaged and destroyed by war Lots of dead combatants & civilians (needlessly) Of course the war in Ukraine is like other proxy wars (in Yemen, Afghanistan etc) and can be…

[delayed]
Post reply on HN