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Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

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Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in High school at the time, I definitely remember a feeling that the election was stolen and that Bush was not rightfully elected. I don't remember the general feeling going away until after 2001. There was a large partisan divide at that time.

Interesting, I was a year out from high school and remember it being really contentious. I just don't remember the phrase "stolen" being thrown around, but that would have been very easy for me to not notice at the time or forget since then.

The earliest that I can find using "stolen" is from 2004, it refers to both the 2004 and 2000 elections as stolen:

https://www.resilience.org/stories/2004-11-05/electronic-vot...

Bonus points for also casting doubt on electronic voting machines :)

A further reference from 2012 has the "stolen" language: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2012/06/yes-bush-v-gore-did-...

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if you're willing to spend that much, and it'll be very expensive, then sure. It's just technophobia - machines are going to be more accurate than a human (who also can make a mistake!).

Almost every democratic country on Earth today does it like that, and all democratic countries have done it like that for the last 100-200 years. Counting paper ballots is just not that hard. Machines are infinitely more complex and exploitable. Plus, you have the extra layer of public perception: it's much easier to convince a chunk of the public that all the machines in some area are miscounting, than it is to conv…

Human counters can be biased, and they're definitely more inaccurate. Machines, unless actively exploited by a third party, will always do the same thing, time after time. I don't believe it's worth the extra expenditure to hire tens of thousands of counters (again, human counters adds manual counting into the process, meaning another place for it to go wrong/be manipulated) when machines do the same thing with no fuss.

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#583
post #506

Computers anywhere in the vote casting process introduce new, additional failure modes. These modes may be intentional (hacking) or unintentional (misconfiguring the paper size of the ballots). They may be mundane (power failure, out of ink) or esoteric (logic error). Even computerized counting has a nonzero error rate (so does human counting, but that can be challenged by human observers). Computers add cost for acq…

It's important to recognize that the US system involves many more races and questions on the ballot than in other (especially parliamentary) systems. Electronic-free counting in many states would significantly extend counting times; many voters have 20+ choices to make, and each of these choices would have to be counted and tracked, which introduces failure modes of their own. Counting by hand makes sense when each b…

- Counting machines should print on each ballot the running count for each race at the point that it counted that ballot. This would allow for manual sampling of N pairs of consecutive ballots to check that the counts never differ by more than one, and never by less than zero.

- Counting machines should be dead simple, and should be one per ballot style. We should go back to precinct-only voting and forget county-wide voting.

- Reconciliation is an absolute must -- as it's always been, but we seem to have stopped doing it in many places.

- Every day of early voting should be treated like election day: with results published for each day. This would reduce the risk of ballot stuffing after hours because one the ballots are counted for the day there are no ballot boxes to stuff.

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#584
post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you referring to Republican Party of Pennsylvania v. Boockvar over the 3 day extension of the received date? Those ballots were collected separately but there were less than 10k of them so even if they’d been 100% Biden voters they wouldn’t have affected the outcome of a race which Biden won by 80k votes.

I am referring to a case filed by the Democratic party of Pennsylvania (not republicans), and I don’t recall the numbers off the top of my head but when it was in the news it was expected that the case would affect a few million votes from mail in ballots that had not yet been returned. Mail in ballots were mostly requested by Democratic voters. The ruling also had some other changes that I can’t recall. Also I forgo…

Try to find a reference. The date component makes it sound like Pennsylvania Democratic Party v. Boockvar, whose decision lead to both the case I mentioned and SCOTUS requiring such ballots to be held separately so they could be removed based on the decision of that case. The major discrepancy is that you’re talking millions and that only affected thousands.

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To what end? Local to me, an “trained” election volunteer was still questioning voter’s citizenship at the polls. I’d say this was a fluke if the GOP hadn’t spent the last umpteen months pushing all this non-citizen voting nonsense. https://wapo.st/3AsIvnf

And which is this mythical group of people that will be disenfranchised if the rule of showing photo id is implemented? How many US citizens don't have any form of valid id?

https://www.voteriders.org/analysis-millions-lack-voter-id/

~7 million with no ID ~29 million without an up-to-date DL

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#586
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we talking about "Voter ID"? If so, isn't that being constantly derailed by the democrats? Just like all the issues with illegals and the border wall, which they don't seem to want to fix and make it impossible.

> Just like all the issues with illegals and the border wall, which they don't seem to want to fix and make it impossible. How do you reconcile that with: Senate Republicans block border security bill as they campaign on border chaos ( May 24, 2024 ) Nearly every GOP senator, along with six Democrats, voted to filibuster a bipartisan bill designed to crack down on migration and reduce border crossings. The vote caps…

You really should read the bill. Our bills are never single subject and always have completely unrelated items in them. The title is also arbitrary marketing speak that is no indication of what the bill is intended to do.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/436...

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#587
post #21

I hate the narratives around voting security in the US. One side says that it is totally secure, basically 0 fraud, most secure election in history, etc etc. The other side claims that the election was completely stolen from them by voting machines. Neither of these claims is right. Personally, I doubt the election was stolen. I know of a handful of cases of voter fraud both anecdotally ("My mom [in a retirement home…

The side that says there's virtually 0 fraud is correct, and the other side is living in a fantasy land because they feel their party is becoming less and less relevant. That side has never produced an iota of proof that there is widespread fraud of that it has affected elections in major races, especially the presidential one. Sometimes "both sides" works in an argument, but when one side has all the proof and the o…

I can not bypass the fact that basically no other developed country allows citizens to vote without proper official photo identification, neither that the sates that allow people to vote without any identification, are the ones where the Democratic Party always wins elections.

I know correlation doesn't mean causation, but I also know that where's there smoke, there's usually a fire.

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to recognize that the US system involves many more races and questions on the ballot than in other (especially parliamentary) systems. Electronic-free counting in many states would significantly extend counting times; many voters have 20+ choices to make, and each of these choices would have to be counted and tracked, which introduces failure modes of their own. Counting by hand makes sense when each b…

I would suggest that the solution is less voting. Ballots are insanely complicated and there’s absolutely zero knowledge the average person has about whether any of the people are good candidates. So then they turn to their favorite voting guides which just shifts the power to unaccountable political groups instead of making the single representative you elect responsible for figuring it out. And there’s too many ele…

If you’re talking about minor elected offices (Clerk of Deeds, etc.) be careful what you wish for.

I lived in a country which did away with many of the small elections, only to have the positions filled by toxic empire-builders.

We went back to elections, where a scandal was handled by electors, not union rules.

Parliamentary democracies are usually accompanied by competent, autonomous civil services. That’s not something America has.

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to recognize that the US system involves many more races and questions on the ballot than in other (especially parliamentary) systems. Electronic-free counting in many states would significantly extend counting times; many voters have 20+ choices to make, and each of these choices would have to be counted and tracked, which introduces failure modes of their own. Counting by hand makes sense when each b…

I would suggest that the solution is less voting. Ballots are insanely complicated and there’s absolutely zero knowledge the average person has about whether any of the people are good candidates. So then they turn to their favorite voting guides which just shifts the power to unaccountable political groups instead of making the single representative you elect responsible for figuring it out. And there’s too many ele…

> Ballots are insanely complicated and there’s absolutely zero knowledge the average person has about whether any of the people are good candidates.

You can say this with a straight face about the presidential election because it's a statistical tie. But it's laughable at the municipal/county level. Even at the state level it's often not true-- e.g., in Ohio were savvy enough to reject a marijuana legalization referendum (which they overwhelmingly wanted!) because it would have given a tiny cartel control over growing it. That caveat wasn't in the text of the referendum IIRC, so somehow a majority of Ohioans defeated it using their "absolutely zero knowledge" of the inner workings of that proposed law.

> So then they turn to their favorite voting guides which just shifts the power to unaccountable political groups instead of making the single representative you elect responsible for figuring it out.

There's a human web of trust lots of voters use to navigate the complexity of voting. The more local you get the more effective it is. At the municipal level there's a chance you're web includes the people directly involved in an issue, in addition to people who can help you judge the veracity of those people!

> And there’s too many elections - non presidential year elections give the power to a motivated and vocal minority which is not what you want because it lets shit stirrers seize control when no one is paying attention.

Sounds like you're hedging here-- what exactly does "give the power to" mean? If you're saying that special interests have more power to slip in corrupting legislation or install lackeys during an off-year, that's definitely not true. The worst stuff gets passed through when there's a lot of noise to cover it-- like presidential elections or national disasters.

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#590
post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure GP is saying a scantron-style one can still be flipped or offset at the destination. They use position on the ballot, not OCR, to determine what the vote is.

It's not actually about how the ballot is interpreted by downstream hardware and software. That's a different issue. It's about the ability for the voter to determine that their own part of the process -- the recording of their own vote -- is done correctly in every respect. Each step of the system has to be verifiable as correct for the system to be trustworthy. As it stands right now, I cannot visually verify that…

>It's not actually about how the ballot is interpreted by downstream hardware and software. That's a different issue.

To me, this seems like the only part worth worrying about, and any solution to it should satisfy your concerns as well.

Every ballot should have a UUID that the voter takes with them (or make it a hash of their voter registration number or something). As soon as the ballot is processed, the results are posted to a public place. Voters can then confirm their ballot was recorded accurately.

This still doesn't tell you that all the internal variables were incremented correctly, but you can separately aggregate the publicly posted results and compare with the aggregate reported by the machine.

The problem this still doesn't solve is electronically stuffing in fake ballots.

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