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Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

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Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#461
post #37

Paper ballots have very boring failure modes and need no explanation or technical support. When you see a system more complex than paper ballots, know that the additions are not there on your behalf .

I disagree. I believe there are people who want results sooner rather than later. The greater the delay, the more annoyed folks become. Recording votes in _both_ paper and electronic form allows for the auditability of paper and the speed of electronic calculations. (Side note: I also believe that hand-counting of ballots can be tedious, and humans performing tedious, repetitive tasks are prone to error. See [1].) [1…

You mean people that had to line up for hours can not wait a little longer for results?

Paper ballot have the advantage of being robust against e.g. power failures. They are also trivially to scale up - just need small secluded space for people to fill them and an additional pen - much shorter waiting lines. There is not BIOS, there is no software to be rolled out or computer to be procured, installed, secured and finally put in secure storage or securely disposed.

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#462
post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But right now I feel like we are stuck, with one half the country having doubts about the process and the other half insisting that it is absolutely perfect. It's not correct that one half of the US insists that the election process is absolutely perfect. There have been countless investigations, inquiries etc. and the process is being continuously reviewed. One half of the US insists that the process shouldn't be…

> One half of the US insists that the process shouldn't be changed to the detriment of minority groups This trope that minorities are affected by voter ID laws doesn’t pass the slightest scrutiny. It’s also just plainly offensive and racist to assume minorities can’t show the basic competency to obtain ID when you already need it for so many things. Where were these complaints when everyone, including minorities, had…

> This trope that minorities are affected by voter ID laws doesn’t pass the slightest scrutiny.

It is well-supported by actual research (e.g. [1]) AND by simple logic. Every single point you brought up has a clear counter argument - why didn't you respond to any of them? Have you simply never heard anyone mention them?

> It’s also just plainly offensive and racist to assume minorities can’t show the basic competency to obtain ID when you already need it for so many things.

It's plainly offensive and racist to ignore studies (e.g. [2]) that prove a higher percentage of minorities owns government issued photo ID compared to non-minorities. I'm not assuming anything, I'm only looking at statistics, at real people and data. You're instead attempting to move the conversation away from data.

> Where were these complaints when everyone, including minorities, had to show documentation around their vaccination status for various things?

First, such complaints did exist back then as well. Second, both vaccination and frequent testing were subsidized by the government, with extra investments towards minorities. Why don't advocates of voter ID ever make similar suggestions? Why not propose a program that allows any minority to acquire a government ID without any downsides, and once that's done propose voter ID?

> Why isn’t this issue in every other country that does require ID to vote in elections?

Because in pretty much every other developed country:

- there exist standardized, government issued IDs that are distributed to every citizen during normal government interactions (e.g. in Germany you must own government ID)

- poor people (a group that minorities make up a disproportionately large part of) have more free time and are in far less precarious positions regarding job security, and consequently health care

- poor people have a far easier time getting to government buildings (e.g. cities are less car-reliant, better public transport, better coverage of government buildings)

The US is in a very different position compared to most other countries. It’s just plainly offensive and racist to introduce additional barriers to basic rights while fully aware that the average person from minority groups will have to spend more time and effort to clear them.

I'm not going to spend time digging up research for every claim I've made unless you're willing to do the same for your positions. But since you've now been made aware that this "trope" does pass the slightest scrutiny, I'm looking forward to your response! Just to summarize, you'll have to explain how the disparate impact of additional barriers to voting isn't "plainly offensive and racist" given that:

- non-minorities are much more likely to own a government ID than minorities

- non-minorities on average have an easier time acquiring such ID

- non-minorities on average face fewer potential repercussions regarding work and health care acquiring such ID

[1] http://ippsr.msu.edu/research/voter-identification-laws-and-...

[2] https://www.voteriders.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/CDCE_V...

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#463
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, and the math is the same. If out of 3 million voters, just 1000 double-check the printout, they will detect a 1/100 flip with probability 99.996%.

And yet somebody who voted said far above in this thread that the machine reads a barcode on their ballot, so they have 0% chance of verifying if their vote was entered correctly. And there is always the added problem of a dieselgate style obfuscation: The machine counts votes differently when in verification mode than in actual vote counting mode. My preferred machine would be one that did not use integrated circuit…

The ballot printout is not discarded, is it? If not, then the ballot-barcode consistency in the sample can be verified as part of the audit.

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#464

I think all US folks reading this should volunteer at their county's Registrar of Voters (or equivalent agency for their county). Spend one election working at a polling place, and another election working at the RoV HQ. See what it's like to go through the training, and what things are like on Election Day, and in the days leading up (for places that allow early voting, drop-off, etc.).

This is a very good suggestion. The internet discourse gets further and further from reality in a lot of areas. Engaging in the actual reality of the voting system is an excellent 'touch grass' opportunity for people passionate about the election.

>The internet discourse gets further and further from reality in a lot of areas

This is an intended feature, and it's exclusively a feature of one political party. The elections are always rigged, this one is rigged, the voting process is rigged, just don't ask me to present evidence in a court of law...

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like quite a stretch to say the 2000 election was stolen. There were definitely ballot issues, but Gore challenged it and ultimately decided of his own accord to concede. He could have continued the challenge and drawn the process out, throwing in throwing in the towel to allow the process to end was his choice, it wasn't stolen.

It's a bit more complicated than that. Gore lost the initial vote count in Florida. He wanted to recount. That was fine. He lost the recount, but it was closer. Then he wanted specific recounts - to recount the precincts where he thought he would gain the most votes in another recount, and to not recount the ones where Bush would gain votes . Also there were calendar issues - the December date where they have to cast…

The really interesting thing was that Bush likely would have won following Gore’s recount of only undervotes but lost if they’d recounted both under and over votes:

https://www.cnn.com/2015/10/31/politics/bush-gore-2000-elect...

My main takeaway is that this was within the margin of error so we shouldn’t go crazy trying to play what-if scenarios and getting distracted from blaming Florida for having a bad system which produced high error rates. Once you’re in the noise like that, you’ve guaranteed that someone will be unhappy.

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#466

I don’t know why this is so hard in America. All other developed countries make this work, what are Americans lacking? The system is just: - Keep a list of citizens allowed to vote - Print paper ballots with the names of the candidates - ask for a proper ID with photograph - collect the votes - count them by hand with the oversee of representatives of the candidates That’s it, that’s all there’s to it and we count 99…

Because the races are close and both candidates have access to the same technology, which also drives them closer, they attack the process.

It can be difficult to get on the list of eligible voters; different places count different things as a proper ID. If you are poor or marginalized in other ways, getting a proper ID can be a challenge. The US has a long history of trying to prevent substantial populations from voting; it’s even designed into the Constitution.

Just this week, the Supreme Court ruled that votes in Pennsylvania that don’t have the date written on them (properly) but were mailed in don’t have to be counted. That has nothing to do with the intent of the voter, but political factions think it affects their chances one way or the other. In some states, you can’t give water to people while they wait in line to vote.

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#467

I don’t know why this is so hard in America. All other developed countries make this work, what are Americans lacking? The system is just: - Keep a list of citizens allowed to vote - Print paper ballots with the names of the candidates - ask for a proper ID with photograph - collect the votes - count them by hand with the oversee of representatives of the candidates That’s it, that’s all there’s to it and we count 99…

You're leaving out that a good portion of developed countries also offer some form of voting by mail. Some US states have rules in place that dictate any mail-in ballots can only be counted starting on election day - since they take more time to process (for verification etc.), this creates large delays in individual states.

Also the photo ID part is different in the US, since there's no uniform governmental ID that every citizen is expected to have. Minorities are less likely to have such ID compared to non-minorities, and (since minorities are disproportionately more likely to be poor) on average face larger issues acquiring such ID.

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I believe there are people who want results sooner rather than later. The greater the delay, the more annoyed folks become. Recording votes in _both_ paper and electronic form allows for the auditability of paper and the speed of electronic calculations. (Side note: I also believe that hand-counting of ballots can be tedious, and humans performing tedious, repetitive tasks are prone to error. See [1].) [1…

You mean people that had to line up for hours can not wait a little longer for results? Paper ballot have the advantage of being robust against e.g. power failures. They are also trivially to scale up - just need small secluded space for people to fill them and an additional pen - much shorter waiting lines. There is not BIOS, there is no software to be rolled out or computer to be procured, installed, secured and fi…

In my country we have paper ballots, but I have (quite seriously) never lined up for more than 20 minutes to vote!

Being a country with compulsory voting helps, because the system has to make it possible for everyone without a valid exceptional circumstance to be able to vote (would be unfair to be fined for not voting if you were still waiting in line to vote when the polls closed), and also they can quite accurately predict the kind of numbers they're going to get at the polling places.

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.cpr.org/2024/10/08/vg-2024-how-your-vote-gets-co... Colorado ballot envelopes already have a bar code - essentially your "serial number". I feel like I'm taking crazy pills because everyone who thinks there's widespread election fraud seems to not know anything about how elections work.

> who thinks there's widespread election fraud seems to not know anything about how elections work. Does your knowledge imply the system is perfect? Is there more than one type of voter fraud? Do we mean just one or two particular federal elections or all elections at every level? What about internal party elections, have those all been extremely fair and above board lately? There's obvious advantages to perpetrating…

It's not a technical challenge, it's a sociological one. No amount of technical security features or published explanations will convince a group of people who have already decided they are being screwed by "the system".

I do agree that America is failing this test.

Re: Colorado scrambles to change voting-system passwords after accidental leak

#470
post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my locale there is a header on the physical ballot that contains a bunch of barcodes, presumably to make your votes machine readable. It then prints the votes in text below. I absolutely hate that fact. I am a human, I cannot read barcodes without a computer. Therefore, I cannot tell if the important part of what was recorded is correct. Not sure if Colorado's are the same...

I believe the idea is that random audits check whether the barcode matches the human-readable part, and in the extremely unlikely even problems are found they simply hand-recount _all_ the ballots ignoring the barcode.

Can you find any website or document that validates that these "random audits" are done? By whom and on what cadence? I've not been able to find anything like this. Just hand-waving, assertions that "someone does something," and so on.
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