The Ultimate Counterfeiter Isn’t a Crook — He’s an Artist • Hacker News Board

Re: The Ultimate Counterfeiter Isn’t a Crook — He’s an Artist

#31

Post by vacri » Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 2:43 PM UTC

jessriedel wrote: post #27

yock wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, this isn't math! It's a story, with characters and a plot. The intrigue is baked-in because it makes for an enjoyable read. Sure, the details are interesting, but there's nothing wrong with telling an interesting story with interesting details in an interesting way. "First this happened and then this happened and then this happened..." is not how you tell a story, regardless of whether or not the story happens t…

If I want an artistic short story in magazine form, I'll read the New Yorker. But this is Wired, and the material facts of this story are the only interesting part. I guess it's possible that a gifted author could wrap these fact with a human-interest element in a way that is worthwhile while still communicating an essential idea ("The Last Question" by Asimov comes to mind). But, by experience, this just isn't withi…

This was the format that a lot of good journalism used to be in, before the internet chopped up everyone's attention span into bite-sized bits.

Re: The Ultimate Counterfeiter Isn’t a Crook — He’s an Artist

#32

Post by vacri » Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 2:46 PM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #16

jablan wrote: post #4

Does anyone else have difficulties reading articles written this way - structured as Hollywood movies, with artificially built-up suspense and all? I feel patronized all the time, trying to get to the "meat" of the article, just finding "next page" link instead.

Agree 100%. I'm saying this all the time. Please, writer, just get to the point! I don't want to learn a zillion details about everything you saw.

Do you complain that movies take too long with the plot when you haven't seen the villain vanquished by the 5-minute mark?

Re: The Ultimate Counterfeiter Isn’t a Crook — He’s an Artist

#33

Post by vacri » Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 2:53 PM UTC

In Australia, we've had polymer notes for 20 years, and counterfeiting is a thing of the past, to the point where I was puzzled as to why someone in the US was marking my $50 note during a purchase while visiting. Paper notes feel nice, but polymer lasts longer and are effectively counterfeit-proof.

Prior to this, we had a woeful $100 note, which was black and white with a bit of subtle colour. Pretty, but a dumb idea for currency. It was not unknown for folks to photocopy one, scrunch it up, and wander into a convenience store in the early hours when the staffer was tired...

Re: The Ultimate Counterfeiter Isn’t a Crook — He’s an Artist

#34

Post by lifeisstillgood » Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 2:54 PM UTC

its_so_on wrote: post #23

mmcconnell1618 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. In the article Kuhl had a legitimate buyer who backed out. The bills where printed and Kuhl needed a buyer. The police decided to become the buyer but the counterfeit bills had already been created and the artist would have found a buyer eventually.

The reason I added that EDIT is because I actually hadn't read that far down yet - I was just referring to his first counterfeiting gig when I first posted the comment: inline search the article for "Kuhl’s counterfeiting career had begun a decade earlier" and read from there. Of course you have no basis for your claim that he would have eventually found a buyer. This is a "manufactured criminal" and the police certa…

This is a very good point - because the costs of trusting the wrong person are so high (Jail, them stealing your money) then the most important thing for criminals is a solid understanding of the background of the other person.

This is why families and old school friends frequently figure together. And why jail makes for furure partners.

Perhaps we should start oldjailbuddy.com - networking for criminals

Re: The Ultimate Counterfeiter Isn’t a Crook — He’s an Artist

#35

Post by SilasX » Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 3:05 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #32

SilasX wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree 100%. I'm saying this all the time. Please, writer, just get to the point! I don't want to learn a zillion details about everything you saw.

Do you complain that movies take too long with the plot when you haven't seen the villain vanquished by the 5-minute mark?

No. Movies are there primarily to entertain. News stories are there to inform. If I wanted the dramatic, drawn-out version, I'd see the "based on a true story!" version.

There are lots of events I could be learning about in a day, and I'd like to be able to get the important stuff out of a new story and go on to the other stuff. In contrast, you can't similarly shorten a movie while sticking to its purpose (usually).

Re: The Ultimate Counterfeiter Isn’t a Crook — He’s an Artist

#36

Post by jablan » Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 3:16 PM UTC

yock wrote: post #24

jessriedel wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad to know that at least someone enjoys this style, because I am with jablan; I hate it. To me, it suggests that the author doesn't expect me to find the content interesting, and that instead this content has to be packaged with (predictable) human-interest intrigue just to get me to read it. To me, it's very analogous to trying to teach students math with colorful, picture-laden textbooks: it might be necessar…

But, this isn't math! It's a story, with characters and a plot. The intrigue is baked-in because it makes for an enjoyable read. Sure, the details are interesting, but there's nothing wrong with telling an interesting story with interesting details in an interesting way. "First this happened and then this happened and then this happened..." is not how you tell a story, regardless of whether or not the story happens t…

I think the problem here is the motivation for reading. I enjoy reading fiction, love watching movies etc. But I clicked the link to the Wired article to learn something new. If I get entertained too, it's just a bonus, but it's entirely optional. Journalism even has a term for what I ask for, they call it "inverted pyramid"[1]. All the petty details intended to spice-up a story are welcome, but they should be placed appropriately, and should be easy to skim over. And this article is a perfect counter-example.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_pyramid

Re: The Ultimate Counterfeiter Isn’t a Crook — He’s an Artist

#37

Post by btilly » Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 3:24 PM UTC

Jun8 wrote: post #28

Never ever do this, esp in the US, even as a joke. I know of cases in my college where students counterfeited $20 bills as a drunk joke: what they found out is that irrespective of the amount federal agents and the goddam CIA got involved and they got persecuted to the maximum degree. My prof was called as an expert witness in the case.

I read an article about it a long time ago. The minimum penalties are draconian. An example from the 80s was a kid who had been making photocopies of $1 bills and feeding them into a change machine for free candy. The minimum penalty at the time was something like $100,000. Today they are higher. You don't want to mess with them.

Governments take money seriously. For example everyone knows that Isaac Newton was a great scientist. Few know that he became Master of the Mint, and was responsible for enforcing the traditional penalty for undermining the currency - execution by drawing and quartering. (By all accounts he was very zealous in this task.)

Re: The Ultimate Counterfeiter Isn’t a Crook — He’s an Artist

#38

Post by fiatpandas » Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 3:24 PM UTC

Jun8 wrote: post #28

Never ever do this, esp in the US, even as a joke. I know of cases in my college where students counterfeited $20 bills as a drunk joke: what they found out is that irrespective of the amount federal agents and the goddam CIA got involved and they got persecuted to the maximum degree. My prof was called as an expert witness in the case.

CIA? What exactly did they do?

Re: The Ultimate Counterfeiter Isn’t a Crook — He’s an Artist

#39

Post by its_so_on » Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 3:30 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #34

its_so_on wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason I added that EDIT is because I actually hadn't read that far down yet - I was just referring to his first counterfeiting gig when I first posted the comment: inline search the article for "Kuhl’s counterfeiting career had begun a decade earlier" and read from there. Of course you have no basis for your claim that he would have eventually found a buyer. This is a "manufactured criminal" and the police certa…

This is a very good point - because the costs of trusting the wrong person are so high (Jail, them stealing your money) then the most important thing for criminals is a solid understanding of the background of the other person. This is why families and old school friends frequently figure together. And why jail makes for furure partners. Perhaps we should start oldjailbuddy.com - networking for criminals

It's actually just one example of my point - we don't really need to speculate on whether there's a market or if not, why not.

It's like if entrapment convinces your performance-oriented daughter who's short on cash (to make this an analogy with the artist in this article) to have sex for money as a kind of performance (same convoluted logic as the artist's in the article).

If afterwards she tries again, there's no proof there's actually a criminal market for her and her criminal soliciting skills learned for the entrapment. But she may or may not know that. One entrapment operation can ruin your daughter's life, who perhaps had literally never given a single thought to prostitution, just as you and I have never thought of armed robbery. It's like a fucked-up internship offered by the government, only instead of setting you up for life with your newfound skills, it fucks you up for life, as in the case we've just read about.

Re: The Ultimate Counterfeiter Isn’t a Crook — He’s an Artist

#40

Post by BlackNapoleon » Thu, Jul 05, 2012, 3:33 PM UTC

Jun8 wrote: post #28

Never ever do this, esp in the US, even as a joke. I know of cases in my college where students counterfeited $20 bills as a drunk joke: what they found out is that irrespective of the amount federal agents and the goddam CIA got involved and they got persecuted to the maximum degree. My prof was called as an expert witness in the case.

What happened?