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Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

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301–310 of 316 posts

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I wish I could get access to the "App'x 29" being referenced so that I could better understand the judges' understanding here. I assume this is Federal Appendix 29 (in which case a more thorough reference would've been appreciated). If the Appeals Court is going to cite the Federal Appendix in a decision like this and in this manner, then the Federal Appendix is as good as case law and West Publishing's copyright cl…

> Just go to a law library. The closest with a copy of the Federal Appendix is ~2 hrs away from me (or on LN if I pay for a subscription). It should be free and online, because it probably can't be copyrighted and because simplifying public access to the law is an unambiguous public good. > Do you know that judges routinely make decisions based on confidential documents not in the public record? Is that also bad? Of…

Facts are incredibly relevant to the meaning of a case's holding. The issue with confidential documents isn't their copyrightibility.

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#302
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 4th amendment was written in 1791

The 4th amendment is about unreasonable searches and seizures, it is also about "persons, houses, papers, and effects", that is, not files stored in someone else's computer. The police here considered that a hash match was a reasonable enough condition to conduct a search, and that Google's TOS allowed it. They were wrong, but it is not obvious that they were by just reading the 4th amendment, and the situation is ra…

The type of person who cannot draw a line of semantic equivalence between papers and files on a computer, is uniquely devoted to entertaining a level of obtuseness it is hard to seriously entertain. On par with people who think that "Arms" in the second amendment must only apply to muskets, cannons and such, and nothing after.

Tell me. When you put a bunch of papers in a folder, then put them in a cabinet, arguably under some semblance of organization in order to make later retrieval easier, what are you doing?

Filing.

The entire desktop metaphor, (the basis around which most computer UI is based), was chosen in part specifically for it's compatibility with non-digital processes at the time of software and the personal computer's fruition. Files on a disk, are in a literal sense, your papers. They are stored in directories(lists of things and where to find them, a.k.a. folders), areanged under the abstractive auspices of a "file system", and at times "archived" for convenient storage or transport. Gee. Same verbage as what you do with papers... In fact, your papers have nothing to do with dead trees except as an accident of it being the first prevalent medium for persistent info storage. Your papers covers the set of information through which you conduct your business with the outside world.

Those packets of paper are files. Those collections of 0's and 1s on a disk are files. Files are papers. Papers are protected. The involvement of a computer in the chain suddenly nullifying the essence of what point was being made by the Founders is as worthy of ridicule as thinking they went to war with their colonial parent state only because of a tax spiff. Or the civil war being only about slavery. It's evidence of a worldview most tragically impoverished; either by accident (which while regrettable, is at least amenable to remedy), or intention to push a state of affairs; to which one can only shake one's head and push on with their own life, and hope that maybe there are enough like minded individuals out there to counterbalance the individual's in questions aspirations.

Already spent more cycles on this than I should have, good day.

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This exactly. Bad people have to go free in order to incentivize good behavior by cops. You and I (as innocent people) are more likely to be affected by bad police behavior than the few bad people themselves and so we support the bad people going free.

>You and I (as innocent people) are more likely to be affected by bad police behavior than the few bad people themselves and so we support the bad people going free. I know anecdotes aren't data, but my only negative interactions with cops have basically been for traffic tickets. Meanwhile my negative interactions with criminals have been far more numerous, along with several second-order effects caused by their mere…

Honest question: are you white?

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This exactly. Bad people have to go free in order to incentivize good behavior by cops. You and I (as innocent people) are more likely to be affected by bad police behavior than the few bad people themselves and so we support the bad people going free.

>You and I (as innocent people) are more likely to be affected by bad police behavior than the few bad people themselves and so we support the bad people going free. I know anecdotes aren't data, but my only negative interactions with cops have basically been for traffic tickets. Meanwhile my negative interactions with criminals have been far more numerous, along with several second-order effects caused by their mere…

That’s called luck.

Personally I’m a cis white male, who’s been a mostly law abiding citizen, and I’ve had dozens of poor interactions with police throughout my life. Additionally I have a probably unusual number of family and friends who work in law enforcement. The stories I’ve heard about co-workers from them are absolutely terrifying. My father’s (retired police officer) advice when I became a teenager was “only call the police when what is about to happen is worse than going to jail.”

I deeply respect the difficulty of the profession and don’t believe that all or even most police are bad people, but there are way too many who have no business being in that profession.

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#305
post #61
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The harshness of sentence is not for the action of keeping the photos in itself, but the individual suffering and social damage caused by the actions that he incentivizes when he consumes such content.

Consumption per se does not incentivize it, though; procurement does. It's not unreasonable to causally connect one to the other, but I still think that it needs to be done explicitly. Strict liability for possession in particular is nonsense. There's also an interesting question wrt simulated (drawn, rendered etc) CSAM, especially now that AI image generators can produce it in bulk. There's no individual suffering n…

AI-generated CSAM is real CSAM and should be treated that way legally. The image generators used to generate it are usually trained on pictures of real children.

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is literally the doctrine behind the good faith argument and qualified immunity. If they have not been informed that this specific act, done in this specific way is not allowed then it is largely permissible. For criminal actions an entirely different set of standards exists, and has longstanding legal precedent. Two in particular: mens rea and strict liability

Right, and my argument is that the double standard itself is not just. I do know as a matter of practicality that I don't really have a legal leg to stand on here; the law is what judges say it is, and they've said it is the way it currently is. I do not find "the justice system treats them differently, therefore they are different and the justice system is just in treating them differently" to be a compelling argume…

> I do not find "the justice system treats them differently... circular appeal to authority.

You may not know it, but you are effectively referencing the difference between a "rule of law" and a "rule by law" in the important parts at least.

This goes back to and falls under social contract theory, and the "rule of law" in society is meant as the final protection for its members, and to provide non-violent conflict resolution impartially, justly, and fairly, equal under the law, and accessible.

The moment the required components cease to exist, is the momentous beginning of a trend towards the failure of society, as it will naturally mean increasing violence and reversion to the natural order, rule of violence.

There is a valid argument to be made that despite many people claiming we have the former, we are actually living in the latter.

The latter allows many miscarriages, such as the infamous soviet judiciary example of, "you show me the person, I'll show you the crime".

Possession laws historically are also particularly problematic in this regard because evidence can be planted, or in the case of digital systems, induced creation of evidence involuntary (given how systems work and how callbacks can be injected by pointing software to a third-party resource to download), regardless there are many potential situations where the viewing of such horrifying material is unrelated to the choice of a person accused.

That of course doesn't appear to be the case here given what's been written, but nonetheless it is important to have firm, objective, and rational requirements to protect citizens. The trade-off is some small number of bad guys may get to go free as a result, and that's a tradeoff anyone should be glad for when it comes to corruption and how it devolves into tyranny unchecked.

The law rarely differentiates mitigating circumstances, often leading to a guilty until proven innocent situation for most, when these types of structural flaws are allowed. For example, there are locksmith tools that are considered burglary tools, and mere possession in some places is grounds for arrest (a felony), these tools share in common the physical shapes for other legitimate item uses.

System's without appropriate procedures and process for punishing abuses almost always leads to totalitarianism when no feedback system is in place to prevent such abuses from getting out of hand, which is why any true American should be up in arms when abuses happen as a result of corruption. Corruption can occur for a number of reasons that do not benefit a person. For a full treating of corruption, Johnston wrote a book on it ("Syndromes of Corruption").

Unfortunately, many judges today view the constitution as only being binding on government itself (in isolation), and have long taken the literal or constructive ruling instead of going with the spirit of the law, lessening our protections over time gradually but surely. This will eventually lead us to societal collapse.

It is a sad state of affairs, but regardless of the nature of the crime, the ends do not justify the means absent direct survival threats (which cannot be soundly argued in this case). Ends justifying means is only valid against existential threats.

When those means are allowed to change arbitrarily, the very next time it will be you or someone close to you on the sacrificial altar as a matter of some corrupt officials convenience, maybe merely for engaging in your protected rights to free speech to limit corrupt behavior or expressing disagreement in retaliation; there will only be an indirect link.

These tools are then ready made to be used in retaliation arbitrarily.

That said,

In this case, at least from what I've read, it appears a fairly clear cut case of fruit of the poisoned tree.

Law Enforcement could easily have applied for a warrant based on the probable cause of the hash matches, but instead chose not to. There is also the question of methodology Google uses in how they manage and enter new hashes into their hash database (which went unanswered).

They would have needed a warrant to justify everything else that came later. That is classic fruit of the poisoned tree. Thus it is a constitutional violation.

Additionally, I'm sure it comes as no surprise to most HN readers who are programmers, but hashes are not unique they are loose fingerprints related to structure but not giving fine detail for a exact match.

At its core, it is a finite field, which means that there can potentially be an infinite number of paths/files out there that match a same given hash.

Using a hash to match results of file structure, are not fool proof, and as a result of this ambiguity, it can potentially impinge legitimate activities, or obscure a chain of evidence without recourse.

For example, say that initial hash was not correctly identified when it was added to that watch list because maybe their AI false positived on it? Or it was submitted without review as being related to some censorable activity (legitimate under 1st amendment), all you have is a hash you can't verify the content.

This is how censorship or social credit can easily happen under a color of law in private parties hands; this has been covered extensively related to EU discussions on Client-Side-Scanning (and why its unreasonable given the repercussions for false-positives).

When you match only hashes, you don't know what the underlying content is aside from a likelihood/probability that it may be the same as some other file, which is why you need to be able to verify it is the exact same.

When your job is to find such people/things you should be doing what's needed (within the law) to ensure the strongest case possible.

The technical details matter, and processes must follow objective measures and be rational, and follow the constitution. Law is procedural, these are professionals. They should have gotten a warrant at the hash match.

Hashing collisions have happened in the past, mathematically this is known and expected given the structure of cryptographic hashes.

The investigators should have gotten a warrant to confirm.

The Failure to get a warrant here was a procedural failure, and left the door open for challenge. From what I can see in the write-up, it should be dismissed.

Failure to do so, effectively sets a precedent such that anything not directly addressed by a previous court can be construed as done in good faith to deprive people of their constitutional rights, allowing contradiction and further paralysis in the courts moving forward, and also promotes the interpretations that case law and legislative law override constitution protections.

Arguably, if the constitutional violation is found and admitted, there is no valid good faith exemption that can be applied to nullify the constitutional cure. The constitution supersedes everything else, including procedure, law, and case law.

The violation must be cured lest the entire constitution lose its power to non-enforcement (and the based system degrades towards tyranny), something that has been arguably happening as a result of long-standing corruption which goes unpunished.

Yes, the accused crimes may be heinous, but everyone is equal under the law. The moment this ceases to be true and happen with any regularity, is the day the rule of law has failed, and society then fails back to a natural law of violence. No one wants that.

It may not happen overnight, but it will happen regardless because history is full of examples where these dynamics cause those outcomes.

In many cases with very few exceptions today, judges who are older come to believe they are above the law, and fail to check their power, and in the end, they violate their sworn oaths. There is no punishment for them for this in most cases, and they never go back and correct mistakes they make (afaik, it is a rare exception if it happens at all).

Any true American should have a solid educational foundation in Social Contract Theory, and the basis for society. You are right to be concerned about the circular reasoning. In the absence of external objective measures, processes, and procedures, such circular reasoning inevitably devolves into delusion.

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you mean the hash-possessor weren't specifically informed it was illegal to possess said hash? This is literally the doctrine behind the good faith argument and qualified immunity. If they have not been informed that this specific act, done in this specific way is not allowed then it is largely permissible. A stupid but equivalent defense from the possessor would be “it’s in Googles possession, not mine, so I ha…

Your argument is a bit disingenuous because it's not applicable in situation where there is clear law clarifying that something can't be done. You're pretending that cops are using this in situations where it's known that a warrant is needed, as opposed to it being an exception to "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine when new caselaw is being made. > Acting in good faith would be getting a warrant regardless That's…

> the law must determine what is fair as society changes over time

This has been the ideal that has been put forth generally quite a bit, but it also almost always neglects the structural failings that must equally be addressed at the same time.

For example, at what point would you say that case law overrides the constitution?

According to the law, it holds the constitution as supreme, and that no representative has the authority to exceed or violate that which is granted in the constitution, this pertains to the judiciary as well as the executive and legislative. It is up to the courts to enforce this as the last pillar of society (for non-violent conflict resolution).

In a general society with a rule of law, when there is a admitted constitutional violation, it must be immediately cured.

Issuing a decision that prevents a constitutional remedy while recognizing the violation is arbitrary, a direct contradiction, exceeds the authority granted, negates the constitution, shows a violation of a sworn oath to uphold the constitution, and causes the entire "rule of law" and its institutional credibility to be called into question.

If you allow exceptions to the constitution, the fundamental component, "equality under the law", fails, and that means we don't have a "rule of law".

The natural outcome of this being increasing violence, which no one wants because it benefits no one.

Bringing society as a whole from a "rule of law" to a "rule by law", which inevitably (over time) causes society to fail violently towards totalitarianism/tyranny, is stupid but may have short term benefits for the corrupt. The harms of such are systemic and grow exponentially.

It is not a matter of catching up to offenders, it is a matter of competency. This is a professional occupation where corruption is an ongoing structural issue, and actions must be reasonable to protect both society and the individual rights equally.

No true American would accept soviet-style kafka courts without any of the normal protections regardless of the crime, and that is the danger faced with the decision here.

Corruption of the state will always seek to use such types of systems to justify their existence often inducing, planting evidence, or causing such crimes to be committed. Some may be actual offenders, but others may not and no differentiation is made. It may even be done for political purposes such as with The Gulag Archipelago.

It is a slippery slope which cannot be walked back later as the damage will have already been done with the punishment being front-loaded.

If there is a question regarding a boundary of a policy or process, you get a legal opinion, and base your actions on that opinion. This is well established in many sectors, including but not limited to the Business Judgment Rule. This is what is needed for this to be done in "good faith".

Allowing a blanket good-faith exemption and exclusion for government to do anything not directly covered by existing case-law without repercussion is a dangerous precedent towards tyranny, especially when they had the probable cause at the start to do it the right way.

It seems like you neglect many of these important foundational subjects. The lack of accountability control encourages the police and related apparatus to violate the law, and thus violate the public trust when this is unenforced.

The main outcome in a society absent a "rule of law" is overwhelming violence. This is what most people fail to realize, and many today embrace magical thinking and delusion.

Mass delusion has greatly overtaken this country and will soon destroy it if it is not stopped.

It is of critical importance to base our protective systems in objective measures which are external, and rational thinking and critical reasoning that logically follows without contradiction or circular reasoning.

To fail at rational thinking, is to embrace delusion and become schizophrenic, a common malady in the totalitarian state (Joost Meerloo). This is covered well in topics on the banality of evil, and the radical evil (WW2).

The crime accused is repugnant, but equality under the law, and constitutional protections are sacrosanct, and far more important than any single person.

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is a bit disingenuous because it's not applicable in situation where there is clear law clarifying that something can't be done. You're pretending that cops are using this in situations where it's known that a warrant is needed, as opposed to it being an exception to "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine when new caselaw is being made. > Acting in good faith would be getting a warrant regardless That's…

> You're pretending that cops are using this in situations where it's known that a warrant is needed, as opposed to it being an exception to "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine when new caselaw is being made. The ACLU has a decent article about it [1]. Beyond that, there is a substantial power imbalance between law enforcement and private citizens implying that private citizens should be favored by the law where p…

I'm not OP, but I consider your response quite reasonable.

I found your reply informative and specific, though I took a more fundamental approach in my response to OP, focusing on components required for a "rule of law" compared to a "rule by law" (kafka/soviet style).

I've done a lot of historic reading, and any time those components fail, violence increases proportionally to the lack of agency for non-violent resolution available.

It may just be speculation on my part, but given the repeated cycle, and detailed accounts, it seems there are parallels in objective measures of these components compared with witnessed events, which are what citizens use as a signal to determine whether they take violent action.

The events seem to follow quite accurately along what's been written in social contract theory, and from Thomas Paine's time & writings.

Obviously these type of writings are from times that are dark and violent, and violence benefits few if any which is why there's good cause in trying to prevent that kind of degradation in existing systems, and the dynamics that cause it.

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like there just needs to be case law about the qualifications of an image hash in order to be counted as probable cause for a warrant. Of course you could make an image hash be arbitrarily good or bad. I am not at all opposed to any of this "get a damn warrant" pushback from judges. I am also not at all opposed to Google searching it's cloud storage for this kind of content. There are a lot of things I would…

I think if the hashes were made available to the public, we should just flood the internet with matching but completely innocuous images so they can no longer be used to justify a search

[dead]

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#310
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes. Entering property for regular maintenance. In every state that I've lived in they must give advance notice (except for emergencies). They can't just show up and do a surprise check.

Only in residential properties, typically. There are also states that have no such requirement even on residential rentals. In any case, I think it's a bit of a red herring and that the "regular comings and goings" case is more analogous. But also that, at this point in the thread, we have reached a point where analogy stops being helpful and the actual thing has to be analyzed.

The point of the analogy is that the contents of ones files should be considered analogous to the contents of ones mind.

Whatever reasons we had in the past for deciding that financial or health data, or conversations with attorneys, or bathrooms and bedrooms, are private, those reasons should apply to ones documents which includes ones files.

Or at least if not, we should figure out and be able to show exactly how and why not with some argument that actually holds water.

Only after that does it make any sense to either defend or object to this development.

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