The 0.05 threshold is indeed arbitrary, but the scientific method is sound. A good researcher describes their study, shows their data and lays their own conclusions. There is just no need (nor possibility) of a predefined recipe to resume the study result into a "yes" or a "no". Research is about increasing knowledge; marketing is about labelling.
> The 0.05 threshold is indeed arbitrary, but the scientific method is sound. Agreed. A single published paper is not science, a tree data structure of published papers that all build off of each other is science.
Moving to a World Beyond "p < 0.05" (2019)
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Re: Moving to a World Beyond "p < 0.05" (2019)
#52Re: Moving to a World Beyond "p < 0.05" (2019)
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah but without a hardline how would you decide what to publish?
Research is an institution. Just qualify the uncertainty and describe your further work to investigate.
Re: Moving to a World Beyond "p < 0.05" (2019)
#54"Don’t base your conclusions solely on whether an association or effect was found to be “statistically significant” (i.e., the p-value passed some arbitrary threshold such as p Don’t believe that an association or effect exists just because it was statistically significant. Don’t believe that an association or effect is absent just because it was not statistically significant. Don’t believe that your p-value gives th…
People do routinely misuse and misinterpret p-values — the worst of it I've seen is actually in the biomedical and biological sciences, but I'm not sure that matters. Attending to the appropriate use of them, as well as alternatives, is warranted.
However, even if everyone started focusing on, say, Bayesian credibility intervals I don't think it would change much. There would still be some criterion people would adopt in terms of what decision threshold to use about how to interpret a result, and it would end up looking like p-values. People would abuse that in the same ways.
Although this paper is well-intended and goes into actionable reasonable advice, it suffers some of the same problems I think is typical of this area. It tends to assume your data is fixed, and the question is how to interpret your modeling and results. But in the broader scientific context, that data isn't a fixed quantity ideally: it's collected by someone, and there's a broader question of "why this N, why this design", and so forth. So yes, ps are arbitrary, but they're not necessarily arbitrary relative to your study design, in the sense that if p I'm not trying to argue for p-values per se necessarily, science is much more than p-values or even statistics, and think the broader problem lies with vocational incentives and things like that. But I do think at some level people will often, if not usually, want some categorical decision criterion to decide "this is a real effect not equal to null" and that decision criterion will always produce questionable behavior around it.
It's uncommon in science in general to be in a situation where the question of interest is to genuinely want to estimate a parameter with precision per se. There are cases of this, like in physics for example, but I think usually in other fields that's not the case. Many (most?) fields just don't have the precision of prediction of the physical sciences, to the point where differences of a parameter value from some nonzero theoretical one make a difference. Usually the hypothesis of a nonzero effect, or of some difference from an alternative; moreover, even when there is some interest in estimating a parameter value, there's often (like in physics) some implicit desire to test whether or not the value deviates significantly from a theoretical one, so you're back to a categorical decision threshold.
Re: Moving to a World Beyond "p < 0.05" (2019)
#55I think the main issue with "p < 0.05" can be summed up as people use it to "prove" a phenomenon exists rather than a pragmatic cutoff to screen for interesting things to investigate further.
Yeah but without a hardline how would you decide what to publish?
Re: Moving to a World Beyond "p < 0.05" (2019)
#56But I am curious about something else. I am not a statistical mechanics person, but my understanding of information theory is that something actually refined emerges with a threshold (assuming it operates on SOME real signal) and the energy required to provide that threshold is important to allow "lower entropy" systems to emerge. Isn't this the whole principle behind Maxwell's Demon? That if you could open a little door between two equal temperature gas canisters you could perfectly separate the faster and slower gas molecules and paradoxically increase the temperature difference? But to only open the door for fast molecules (thresholding them) the little door would require energy (so it is no free lunch)? And that effectively acts as a threshold on the continuous distributions? I guess what I am asking is that isn't there a fundamental importance to thresholds in generating information? Isn't that how neurons work? Isn't that how AI models work?
Re: Moving to a World Beyond "p < 0.05" (2019)
#57The 0.05 threshold is indeed arbitrary, but the scientific method is sound. A good researcher describes their study, shows their data and lays their own conclusions. There is just no need (nor possibility) of a predefined recipe to resume the study result into a "yes" or a "no". Research is about increasing knowledge; marketing is about labelling.
> The 0.05 threshold is indeed arbitrary, but the scientific method is sound. Agreed. A single published paper is not science, a tree data structure of published papers that all build off of each other is science.
Re: Moving to a World Beyond "p < 0.05" (2019)
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
Research is an institution. Just qualify the uncertainty and describe your further work to investigate.
In THEORY yes, but in practice, there are not a ton of journals I think that will actually publish well done research that does not come to some interesting conclusion and find some p<.05. So....
The peaks in your spectra, the calculation results, or the microscopy image either support your findings or they don't, so P-values don't get as much milage. I can't remember the last time I saw a P-value in one of those papers.
This does create a problem similar to publishing null result P-values, however: if a reaction or method doesn't work out, journals don't want it because it's not exciting. So much money is likely being wasted independently duplicating failed reactions over and over because it just never gets published.
Re: Moving to a World Beyond "p < 0.05" (2019)
#59I think the main issue with "p < 0.05" can be summed up as people use it to "prove" a phenomenon exists rather than a pragmatic cutoff to screen for interesting things to investigate further.
Yeah but without a hardline how would you decide what to publish?
The p-value cutoff of 0.05 just means "an effect this large, or larger, should happen by chance 1 time out of 20". So if 19 failed experiments don't publish and the 1 successful one does, all you've got are spurious results. But you have no way to know that, because you don't see the 19 failed experiments.
This is the unresolved methodological problem in empirical science that deal with weak effects.
Re: Moving to a World Beyond "p < 0.05" (2019)
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The 0.05 threshold is indeed arbitrary, but the scientific method is sound. Agreed. A single published paper is not science, a tree data structure of published papers that all build off of each other is science.
Sounds good but is that true? A single unreplicated paper could be science couldn't it? Science is a framework within which there are many things, including theories, mistakes, false negatives, replication failures, etc... Science progresses due to quantity more than quality, it is brute force in some sense that way, but it is more a journey than a destination. You "do" science moreso than you "have" science.