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Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

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Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#491

Post by wrren »

ho_schi wrote: post #404

First step. Second step? Ban games with kernel-level anti-cheat. It is not acceptable on Linux. Apple will also not accept that shit further, that said Apple lost relevance in gaming with Mantle and the M-Processors (both mean a lot of incompatibility). And Microsoft is regretting every choice in this regard: https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/12/24242947/microsoft-window... But that is a usual pattern. Microsoft makes…

That's an incredibly naive perspective. KLA represents a real risk to companies, as something going wrong can crash player computers instead of just game processes; this is a PR nightmare if/when it happens on a large scale. Not to mention the cost of hiring engineers capable of building kernel components in the first place, it's a niche skillset that's not cheap to hire for.

Games companies don't turn to KLA out of laziness, it's out of absolute necessity, especially for games like FPS' where it's impossible to fully secure the game using pure server-side methods. Machine learning has been tried, it's too prone to false positives and misses more subtle cheats that still negativel impact the the player experience. Anti-Cheat used to exist purely in user mode and then, guess what?, cheats moved into the kernel where they couldn't be detected or stopped. Anti-cheat had to follow in order to remain effective.

The alternative was conceding the space to cheaters and watching games that players love, and that required massive resources to develop and maintain, degenerate into a hellscape of cheating that real players refuse to play.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#492

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

yreg wrote: post #195

I've just reinstalled GTA V last week and I was very surprised to find out that I now have to install a rootkit to run it. They had the balls to add a mandatory kernel extension into a game that I've bought 10 years ago and that I wish to play in single player only. I find it utterly ridiculous. As usual, piracy would have been the superior experience.

Honest question.

Would a Windows10-11 user be able to tell there are "rootkits" embedded in installations, without looking at the (optional) disclosures made available now on steam ?

In other words, what guarantee is there that if i'm buying a game from Steam, or say GOG, that there's no quasi-malware riding along with the game install ?

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#493

Post by nithssh »

Makes sense considering Valve has maintained that kernel level AC is not required and has not included one in their own games, but let's be honest, unfortunately you have to often wonder if your enemy is having a good day or if he's hacking in CS but not so in valorant for a reason.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#494

Post by amiga386 »

BoorishBears wrote: post #481
Eisenstein wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Want FPS without cheaters? Encourage people to do DIY matchmaking again, DIY server hosting and DIY administration. Yes. This is the answer. There is no solution that relies only on technology that will fix human problems at scale. You can make it harder, but once one person figures it out, everyone has access to it. You need to break it into pieces and let people deal with it on the community level, where communit…

It's only the answer if the goal is to not feel like you're being cheated by cheaters: realistically cheating would be absolutely fucking bonkers if you actually tried to treat DIY matchmaking as a form anti-cheat. Voting to kick/ban and sharing ban lists only works for ragehacking, but the most joy stealing form of cheating is people using hacks and cheats subtly enough to beat an average player, but not strongly en…

I don't think anyone is saying "DIY matchmaking", they're saying "community servers" - and everyone in any given community knows everyone else, ideally IRL, and any newcomers are going to be watched, both for their technical performance but also their social performance.

Cheating among your friends has the ultimate death penalty of losing those friendships. Most people don't want that.

This is why most cheating is not among close friends, but where there's an open buffet for the energy vampires; anodyne corporate "matchmaking" where the game corporation will place you with other customers of the game corporation at its choice. The cheater does not have to face a panel of their peers, they only have to slip past the inattentive corporation to be placed in a server with delicious innocent strangers who they will never see again once they've had their fun.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#495

Post by lxgr »

portaouflop wrote: post #372
Aeolun wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean all the anti-cheat options are pre-built into your rig?

Which is fine on a device that you only use for gaming, or am I missing something?

Not nearly every "gaming PC" is used for only that.

When I grew up, I had one PC to do everything: Homework, gaming, learning to program, storing the single copy of treasured family photos, gaining painful experience in why to make backups before modifying the MBR to dual-boot Linux...

Especially with iPads and Chromebooks becoming more prevalent in an education context, a "gaming PC" might well be the only computer that gives the user full control over it that many children have access to these days.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#496

Post by ixwt »

nithssh wrote: post #493

Makes sense considering Valve has maintained that kernel level AC is not required and has not included one in their own games, but let's be honest, unfortunately you have to often wonder if your enemy is having a good day or if he's hacking in CS but not so in valorant for a reason.

I'm also hearing a bunch of grumblings and speculation that Valve is developing a non kernel level anti cheat.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#497

Post by _factor »

parl_match wrote: post #410
soderfoo wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (Rockstar really should’ve made this a separate launch option like other games do) This is what happens when a producer's/product manager's cherished KPIs come before UX. In their mind, adding a toggle in the launcher would lead to lower engagement and player acquisition. We, the players, fail to recognize how our gaming experience can be enhanced by using social features like leader boards, guilds, or in game chat…

> This is what happens when a producer's/product manager's cherished KPIs come before UX. > In their mind, adding a toggle in the launcher would lead to lower engagement and player acquisition. Not "in their mind". It does and they have the data to show it. Very frustrating situation.

Government regulation of toxic waste dumping negatively impacts profit margins. We have the data to prove this, very frustrating situation.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#498

Post by keyringlight »

remnantdiving wrote: post #475
maccard wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a steam game, that's a user mod (read: random binary downloaded from the internet and executed). Also, it doesn't need kernel level access to do any of that stuff, it can get by just fine with normal application level permissions. This is no different to downloading a random binary off the internet and being surprised it's malicious.

patched: https://hackerone.com/reports/470520 https://hackerone.com/reports/1070835 https://secret.club/2021/04/20/source-engine-rce-invite.html https://secret.club/2020/10/30/alien-swarm-rce.html https://threatpost.com/dark-souls-servers-down-rce-bug/17789... https://blog.thalium.re/posts/achieving-remote-code-executio... https://www.pcgamer.com/garrys-mod-cough-virus-is-cured-but-... you can buy these games in thei…

I've been wondering is how long before we get a 'PC-console' dedicated gaming device, there's certain aspects where PC is falling into the gravity well of the console model. Whether that's the technical aspects like how far you can lock down for security (and who's security) or DRM, whether people only want a nice front end, whether everything should be managed by a defacto 'good' platform holder versus allowing companies to do their own thing (clients or commerce). At some point such a thing looks like a more expensive ultra-pro console.

Then that has to be balanced against the freedom aspect where people want flexibility to build a workstation how they want and do what they want on it, and expecting it all to work (windows games being supported on non-windows is a more common issue now). PC casts the broadest net and catches a lot of different desires, similar with how high-end and low-end seem to be splitting over the past ~5 years rather than being a continuous spectrum I wonder if there will be distinct types of PC for gaming (eg set models like the old Commodore Amiga) or if trying to resist splits does more harm than good.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#499

Post by Workaccount2 »

_factor wrote: post #497
parl_match wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is what happens when a producer's/product manager's cherished KPIs come before UX. > In their mind, adding a toggle in the launcher would lead to lower engagement and player acquisition. Not "in their mind". It does and they have the data to show it. Very frustrating situation.

Government regulation of toxic waste dumping negatively impacts profit margins. We have the data to prove this, very frustrating situation.

To be fair, the societal harm from deciding to play multiplayer instead of single player is probably a few orders of magnitude less than toxic waste in the water.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#500

Post by Ajedi32 »

BoorishBears wrote: post #485
immibis wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How's that any different from just having a really good player in your community - which, in many cases, also spoils the fun?

Are you seriously asking me how getting killed by someone cheating to know exactly where you are feels different than just being outplayed?

Actually yes.

If you've never been falsely accused of cheating in an online game by people who can't tell the difference between that and getting outplayed, chances are you haven't played any multiplayer games long enough to get any good at them.

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