Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages • Hacker News Board

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#371

Post by Aeolun » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 6:03 AM UTC

steelframe wrote: post #278

I built a separate Arch Linux box just for Steam gaming. I will never log into any of my sensitive accounts -- email, banking, etc. -- on that machine. It's a Framework laptop so I can physically keep the camera and microphone disconnected. I basically treat it like a public terminal.

Do you truly expect any steam games to have anything like a root kit that’d exfiltrate your credentials?

I feel if this were the case literally anything I install on my PC would be suspect. Installing ssh would be a much more scary thing than a random steam game.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#372

Post by portaouflop » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 6:03 AM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #370

neilv wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the reasons I run a PS5 instead. AFAIK, there's fewer cheaters on PlayStation current-gen than on PC, and I don't have to worry about anti-cheat kludges corrupting my "rig".

You mean all the anti-cheat options are pre-built into your rig?

Which is fine on a device that you only use for gaming, or am I missing something?

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#373

Post by soderfoo » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 6:06 AM UTC

mrpippy wrote: post #349

yreg wrote: post #195

I've just reinstalled GTA V last week and I was very surprised to find out that I now have to install a rootkit to run it. They had the balls to add a mandatory kernel extension into a game that I've bought 10 years ago and that I wish to play in single player only. I find it utterly ridiculous. As usual, piracy would have been the superior experience.

Add ‘-nobattleye’ to the Steam command-line launch options and you can play single-player without any installs. (Rockstar really should’ve made this a separate launch option like other games do)

> (Rockstar really should’ve made this a separate launch option like other games do)

This is what happens when a producer's/product manager's cherished KPIs come before UX.

In their mind, adding a toggle in the launcher would lead to lower engagement and player acquisition.

We, the players, fail to recognize how our gaming experience can be enhanced by using social features like leader boards, guilds, or in game chat. We are not enlightened.

Think about all the fun and exciting connections you'd miss out on if all the social crap was off by default or in an easily accessible place.

I'm honestly surprised it's a command line option. My guess is that the requirement originated externally.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#374

Post by pezezin » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 6:11 AM UTC

dbrueck wrote: post #299

cmxch wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rejoinder: Blizzard’s Warden. No bootkit, no invasive system configuration required, even plays nice with “niche/enthusiast” platforms like Linux, doesn’t even care if your keyboard isn’t a bit niche too. Thought: If they expect a console level of lockdown, why do they bother writing for the PC? If I wanted a $game_console, I’d buy the console.

Hmm... isn't Blizzard's main FPS title Overwatch though? Cheating seems pretty common in that game (and there are tons of forum threads where people are complaining about it).

There are tons of forum threads about gamers complaining about every single game in history. Seriously, most gaming forums are incredibly toxic.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#375

Post by wodenokoto » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 6:14 AM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #371

steelframe wrote: post #278

I built a separate Arch Linux box just for Steam gaming. I will never log into any of my sensitive accounts -- email, banking, etc. -- on that machine. It's a Framework laptop so I can physically keep the camera and microphone disconnected. I basically treat it like a public terminal.

Do you truly expect any steam games to have anything like a root kit that’d exfiltrate your credentials? I feel if this were the case literally anything I install on my PC would be suspect. Installing ssh would be a much more scary thing than a random steam game.

No, he expects the root kit will open up his machine to automated worms.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#376

Post by intended » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 6:16 AM UTC

baseballdork wrote: post #27

arp242 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's impossible to prevent cheating from the server-side only. Something like an aimbot can operate purely on information you need to have as a client (to render the other players on the screen), and still be a huge advantage because it can respond faster than any human can.

Shouldn't that be detectable?

Nope.

Evolutionary pressures on cheaters drives them to get better.

Eventually someone finds a stable chink in the server armor and it is exploited en masse.

The goal is to make it inconvenient to cheat on average.

There’s probably some ratio of games with cheaters to games without cheaters that players can tolerate that governs this.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#377

Post by grbrr » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 6:19 AM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #370

neilv wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the reasons I run a PS5 instead. AFAIK, there's fewer cheaters on PlayStation current-gen than on PC, and I don't have to worry about anti-cheat kludges corrupting my "rig".

You mean all the anti-cheat options are pre-built into your rig?

Yes, so you don’t have to run a rootkit on a machine that you might file your taxes on.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#378

Post by dmichulke » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 6:23 AM UTC

portaouflop wrote: post #372

Aeolun wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean all the anti-cheat options are pre-built into your rig?

Which is fine on a device that you only use for gaming, or am I missing something?

Well, you run untrusted code in your local network.

Then again, we all trust our "smart" devices even if we really don't.

I suppose a separate network would be the safe option (if you trust your router).

That said, have there been rotten meat attacks using "temporarily above temperature" fridges?

Are vegans just applying a defensive strategy against those?

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#379

Post by elashri » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 6:28 AM UTC

lifeformed wrote: post #319

alex_lav wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This post is so interesting because it highlights the people that don't know anything about the requirements or state of cheats/anticheat. What you're describing is 10 years out of date. Every modern cheat has a toggle, and (almost) every modern cheater masks augmented behavior with misses/native behavior.

This thread is full of armchair developers who see a problem and immediately think, "Oh, it's easy, just do this simple thing I just thought of," as is there haven't been billions of dollars and decades of research spent on this problem.

According to the latest study [1] estimating how much money cheat developers make annually it is an upper limit of ~ $75M. I would say that the very liberal estimation of anti cheating efforts will cost maybe $100M annually. That does not include only research efforts but actual cost of tackle them (extra compute, reviewers...etc). This is unrealistic but even through to reach the point of billions (2-3 billions) you would say that Gaming companies were spending on average $100M since the beginning of personal computers era (on research only). This is not something that is hard to believe even with the most liberal interpretation.

So I think it is fair to say the there haven't been billions of dollars of research spent on this problem.

[1] https://www.dexerto.com/gaming/anti-cheat-study-reveals-chea...

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#380

Post by echoangle » Thu, Oct 31, 2024, 7:00 AM UTC

grbrr wrote: post #377

Aeolun wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean all the anti-cheat options are pre-built into your rig?

Yes, so you don’t have to run a rootkit on a machine that you might file your taxes on.

I would bet 90% of people here have at least another laptop if they have a gaming PC, if you’re concerned about being compromised by rootkits, just do your taxes on that.