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Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

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Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#271

Post by nathants »

ryankrage77 wrote: post #268
nathants wrote: post #236

kernel level anticheat is not enough. client inputs have to be trusted, and there is no provenance. the kernel has no visibility of inputs. i’m shipping a 100 player matchmaking game now. clients tick at 360hz, server ticks at 120hz. fair up to 60 ping, which covers entire continents. servers are metal, not vms. epyc 4244p with 2Gbps egress, 1 server per 15 minute game. mitigations=off and nosmt on all clients and th…

I assume this is satire, because nobody would play a game with those requirements.

i would never joke about cheaters, spammers, or other netizens of ill repute.

if this is a challenge, consider it accepted.

link in bio.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#272

Post by dietr1ch »

skizm wrote: post #266
fngjdflmdflg wrote: post #171

I hate to say this but a large percentage (in fact, I believe a majority) of gamers simply do not care about invasive anti-cheats. Right now CounterStrike players are mostly begging Valve for kernel-level anti-cheat since their current solution isn't working at all. If anything, this warning will actually make many player's more impressed with the game. That said, more consumer information is almost always better in…

As a counter strike player, I definitely shy away from the invasive anti cheat stuff… but I’d let valve inject it into my veins if it meant I could actually play and not suspect everyone of cheating all the time. Mostly because Valve has earned my trust. I won’t install games from other companies using similarly invasive techniques though.

While I trust valve, I'm not willing to mess up with my workstation to play.

Also, there's hardware cheats, so I don't need a rootkit on my machine, but a server side thing that properly weeds bad players out through reports/trust and automated bans.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#273

Post by FactKnower69 »

burnished wrote: post #214
sadeshmukh wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why isn't server-side anticheat a possible solution? Cheats can spoof inputs purely through visual output as well, meaning there cannot be full trust client-side.

Not an expert but I've done a little reading and basically the combination of real time actions and a network makes it intractable, you end up just having to trust the client on some things (or having to make trade offs like a client potentially not having the information needed to display the game state to the player, or choppy/unresponsive gameplay as a function of latency).

>some things

Any specific examples? I hear this said all the time and it's almost never true.

Movement, for example: many decide to just let clients be fully authoritative over their positions and then act shocked when teleport hacks drop. Just keep track of the player's max move speed server-side, continually validate, and flag if they consistently move faster than is possible according to the server. No one is ever saying you have to validate inputs server-side in lock step with zero client-side prediction whatsoever and enforce 200ms of input lag for all players.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#274

Post by andyferris »

OtomotO wrote: post #55
RobotToaster wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lets call them what they really are, rootkits.

That's exactly what I tell my friends. I can't play certain games, because they don't run on Linux and even if they did, I am not gonna install a rootkit to run them.

Hmm, here’s a thought I’ve never had (but might be obvious to others).

Could I run windows as a VM guest under Linux and play Fortnite in that (with good GPU performance)? I don’t mind their rootkit running on some dedicated VM - I’ll just consider it my Fortnite unikernel.

(I’m also ok with the host OS being Windows or MacOS).

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#275

Post by phire »

sadeshmukh wrote: post #190
dbrueck wrote: post #176

The anti-cheat problem is long-running and complicated. If you choose not to run anti-cheat because you understand that these are opaque rootkits, good for you! That's a totally, 100% valid choice. But please keep in mind: - you are a tiny minority and not the target customer - online multiplayer games are an absurdly big business (i.e. there are huge incentives here) - no, you can't completely solve this server side…

Why isn't server-side anticheat a possible solution? Cheats can spoof inputs purely through visual output as well, meaning there cannot be full trust client-side.

A good anti-cheat solution needs both client side and server side components, they complement each other.

You also need active human involvement, both as moderators and evolving the anti-cheat technology over time.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#276

Post by quenix »

andyferris wrote: post #274
OtomotO wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly what I tell my friends. I can't play certain games, because they don't run on Linux and even if they did, I am not gonna install a rootkit to run them.

Hmm, here’s a thought I’ve never had (but might be obvious to others). Could I run windows as a VM guest under Linux and play Fortnite in that (with good GPU performance)? I don’t mind their rootkit running on some dedicated VM - I’ll just consider it my Fortnite unikernel. (I’m also ok with the host OS being Windows or MacOS).

The anti-cheat will be very unhappy when it performs a bunch of arcane heuristics and determines it’s running in a VM.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#277

Post by tw04 »

OtomotO wrote: post #55
RobotToaster wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lets call them what they really are, rootkits.

That's exactly what I tell my friends. I can't play certain games, because they don't run on Linux and even if they did, I am not gonna install a rootkit to run them.

Ultimately, this is why we have consoles. We can have rootkits, or we can have cheating. Nobody has solved cheat prevention without rootkits. If you can, you’d make millions, if not billions. It’s not like the game creators want to have software on your system that has the potential to brick your system.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#278

Post by steelframe »

I built a separate Arch Linux box just for Steam gaming. I will never log into any of my sensitive accounts -- email, banking, etc. -- on that machine. It's a Framework laptop so I can physically keep the camera and microphone disconnected. I basically treat it like a public terminal.

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#279

Post by gauge_field »

throwaway48476 wrote: post #2

After the crowdstrike disaster 3rd party kernel drivers need to be shunned for non critical applications. Games publishers have been bad actors in this space for a long time now. The genshin impact anticheat was used in a malware campaign. Rockstar was very misleading trying to imply their kernel driver not being compatible with the steam deck was valves fault.

I just want to spam skill shot with ranged-heros on Aram 1-2 times a week. No way I am running vanguard for that!!!!

Re: Steam games will need to disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

#280

Post by stuckkeys »

Nadya wrote: post #11
doublerabbit wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What decides critical or non-critical. One could argue that a game isn't critical but one could say it's critical to stop hackers. If you were to take the stance that gaming isn't critical than with that logic you're then claiming multiplayer hacking is a feature of the game. Doesn't do well for the community or the company. But nor do the rootkits do good for the consumer.

If they worked to any acceptable level of efficacy then they could be tolerated. They're only tolerated by people who think they work as well as they claim to work (security theater) but anyone who knows about the performance impacts and/or are tech-savvy enough to understand it is a rootkit and potential exploit (that would fully pwn your device) hates them. Some cheats are getting rather sophisticated now. There's…

What is the name of the tool that he is using on the 2nd link you shared? You know for science.
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