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Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

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Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this court decision is a real world example, and not some esoteric edge case. This is something I don’t think needs analogies to understand. SA/CP image and video distribution is an ongoing moderation, network, and storage issue. The right to not be under constant digital surveillance is somewhat protected in the constitution. I like speech and privacy and am paranoid of corporate or government overreach, but I a…

Wait until Trump is in power and corporations are masterfully using these tools to “mow the grass” (if you want an existing example of this, look at Putin’s Russia, where people get jail time for any pro-Ukraine mentions on social media).

It is worse. Trump will actually put people on concentration camps! Glenn Greenwald explains the issue here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EjkstotxpE

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#162
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And specifically with respect to the law, breaking a law and claiming you didn't know you did anything wrong as an individual is not considered a valid defense in our justice system. This same type of standard should apply even more to trained law enforcement, not less, otherwise it becomes a double standard.

No this is breaking the law by saying this looked like one of the situations where I already know the law doesn't apply. If Google had looked at the actual image and said it was child porn instead of just saying it was similar to some image that is child porn this would be 100% legal as the courts have already said. That difference is subtle enough that I can see how someone would get it wrong (and in fact I would ex…

Doesn’t address the point. Does everyone get a good faith exception from laws they don’t know or misunderstand, or just the police?

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#163
Well let's look at how this actually played out.

  - Defendant was in fact sending CP through his gmail.
  - gmail correctly detects and flags it based on hash value
  - Google sends message to NCMEC based on hash value
  - NCMEC sends it to police based on hash value
Now police are facing the obvious question, is this actually CP? They open the image, determine it is, then get a warrant to search his gmail account, and (later) another warrant to search his home.

The court here is saying they should have got a warrant to even look at the image in the first place. But warrants only issue on probable cause. What's the PC here? The hash value. What's the probability of hash collisions? Non-zero but very low.

The practical upshot of this is that all reports from NCMEC will now go through an extra step of the police submitting a copy of the report with the hash value and some boilerplate document saying 'based on my law enforcement experience, hash values are pretty reliable indicators of fundamental similarity', and the warrant application will then be rubber stamped by a judge.

An analogous situation would be where I send a sealed envelope with some documents to the police, writing on the outside 'I believe the contents of this envelope are proof that John Doe committed [specific crime]', and the police have to get a warrant to open the envelope. It's arguably more legally consistent, but in practice it just creates an extra stage of legal bureaucracy/delay with no appreciable impact on the eventual outcome.

Recall that the standard for issuance of a warrant is 'probable cause', not 'mathematically proven cause'. Hash collisions are a possibility, but a sufficiently unlikely one that it doesn't matter. Probable cause means 'a fair probability' based on independent evidence of some kind - testimony, observation, forensic results or so. Even a shitty hash function that's only 90% reliable is going to meet that threshold. In the 10% of cases where the opened file turns out to be a random image with no pornographic content it's a 'no harm no foul' situation.

For reference, a primer on hash collision probabilities: https://preshing.com/20110504/hash-collision-probabilities/

and a more detailed examination of common perceptual hashing algorithms (skip to table 3 for the collision probabilities): https://ceur-ws.org/Vol-2904/81.pdf

I think what a lot of people are implicitly arguing here is that the detection system needs to be perfect before anyone can do anything. Nobody wants the job of examining images to check if they're CP or not, so we've outsourced it to machines that do so with good-but-not-perfect accuracy and then pass the hot potato around until someone has to pollute their visual cortex with it.

Obviously we don't want to arrest or convict people based on computer output alone, but how good does it have to be (in % or odds terms) in order to begin an investigation - not of the alleged criminal, but of the evidence itself? Should companies like Google have to submit an estimate of the probability of hash collisions using their algorithm and based on the number of image hashes that exist on their servers at any given moment? Should they be required to submit source code used to derive that? What about the microcode of the silicon substrate on which the calculation is performed?

All other things being equal, what improvement will result here from adding another layer of administrative processing, whose outcome is predetermined?

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#164
post #60

"That, however, does not mean that Maher is entitled to relief from conviction. As the district court correctly ruled in the alternative, the good faith exception to the exclusionary rule supports denial of Maher’s suppression motion because, at the time authorities opened his uploaded file, they had a good faith basis to believe that no warrant was required." "Defendant [..] stands convicted following a guilty plea…

Constitutional rights did not win enough, it should be that violating constitutional rights means the accused goes free, period, end of story

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#165
post #34

It seems like a large part of the ruling hinges on the fact that Google matched the image hash to a hash of a known child pornography image, but didn't require an employee to actually look at that image before reporting it to the police. If they had visually confirmed it was the image they suspected it was based on the hash then no warrant would have been required, but the judge reads that the image hash match is not…

The hashes involved in stuff like this, as with copyright auto-matching, are perceptual hashes ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptual_hashing ), not cryptographic hashes. False matches are common enough that perceptual hashing attacks are already a thing in use to manipulate search engine results (see the example in random paper on the subject https://gangw.cs.illinois.edu/PHashing.pdf ).

This submission is the first I've heard of the concept. Are there OSS implementations available? Could I use this, say, to deduplicate resized or re-jpg-compressed images?

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#166

> Google’s hash match may well have established probable cause for a warrant to allow police to conduct a visual examination of the Maher file. Very reasonable. Google can flag accounts as CP, but then a judge still needs to issue a warrant for the police to actually go and look at the file. Good job court. Extra points for reasoning about hash values.

If the police “wanted” to look. But what if they were notified of the material? Then the police should not need a warrant, right?

they should as a matter of course. but I guess "papers" you entrust to someone else are a gray area. I personally think that it goes against the separation of police state and democracy, but I'm a nobody, so it doesn't matter I suppose.

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#167
post #3

It's crazy that the most dangerous people one regularly encounters can do anything they want as long as they believe they can do it. The good faith exemption has to be one of the most fascist laws on the books today. > "the good faith exception to the exclusionary rule supports denial of Maher’s suppression motion because, at the time authorities opened his uploaded file, they had a good faith basis to believe that n…

That's not what this means. One can ask whether the belief is reasonable, that is justifiable by a reasoning process. The argument for applying the GFE in this case is that the probability of false positives from a perceptual hash match is low enough that it's OK to assume it's legit and open the image to verify that it was indeed child porn. They then used that finding to get warrants to search the guy's gmail account and later his home.

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#168
post #59

So now an algorithm can interpret the law better than a judge. It’s amazing how technology becomes judge and jury while privacy rights are left to a good faith interpretation. Are we really okay with letting an algorithmic click define the boundaries of privacy?

The algorithm is interpreting whether one image file matches another, a purely probabilistic issue.

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#169

> Google’s hash match may well have established probable cause for a warrant to allow police to conduct a visual examination of the Maher file. Very reasonable. Google can flag accounts as CP, but then a judge still needs to issue a warrant for the police to actually go and look at the file. Good job court. Extra points for reasoning about hash values.

If the police “wanted” to look. But what if they were notified of the material? Then the police should not need a warrant, right?

Don't they?. If you tell the cops that your neighbor has drugs of significant quantity in their house, would they not still need a warrant to actually go into your neighbor's house?

Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]

#170

> Google’s hash match may well have established probable cause for a warrant to allow police to conduct a visual examination of the Maher file. Very reasonable. Google can flag accounts as CP, but then a judge still needs to issue a warrant for the police to actually go and look at the file. Good job court. Extra points for reasoning about hash values.

If the police “wanted” to look. But what if they were notified of the material? Then the police should not need a warrant, right?

There are a lot of nuances to these situations of third-party involvement and the ruling discusses these at length. If you’re interested in the precise limits of the 4th amendment you should really just read the linked document.
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