Earlier quoted context omitted.
But this court decision is a real world example, and not some esoteric edge case. This is something I don’t think needs analogies to understand. SA/CP image and video distribution is an ongoing moderation, network, and storage issue. The right to not be under constant digital surveillance is somewhat protected in the constitution. I like speech and privacy and am paranoid of corporate or government overreach, but I a…
Wait until Trump is in power and corporations are masterfully using these tools to “mow the grass” (if you want an existing example of this, look at Putin’s Russia, where people get jail time for any pro-Ukraine mentions on social media).
Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]
161–170 of 316 posts
Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
And specifically with respect to the law, breaking a law and claiming you didn't know you did anything wrong as an individual is not considered a valid defense in our justice system. This same type of standard should apply even more to trained law enforcement, not less, otherwise it becomes a double standard.
No this is breaking the law by saying this looked like one of the situations where I already know the law doesn't apply. If Google had looked at the actual image and said it was child porn instead of just saying it was similar to some image that is child porn this would be 100% legal as the courts have already said. That difference is subtle enough that I can see how someone would get it wrong (and in fact I would ex…
Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]
#163 - Defendant was in fact sending CP through his gmail.
- gmail correctly detects and flags it based on hash value
- Google sends message to NCMEC based on hash value
- NCMEC sends it to police based on hash value
Now police are facing the obvious question, is this actually CP? They open the image, determine it is, then get a warrant to search his gmail account, and (later) another warrant to search his home.The court here is saying they should have got a warrant to even look at the image in the first place. But warrants only issue on probable cause. What's the PC here? The hash value. What's the probability of hash collisions? Non-zero but very low.
The practical upshot of this is that all reports from NCMEC will now go through an extra step of the police submitting a copy of the report with the hash value and some boilerplate document saying 'based on my law enforcement experience, hash values are pretty reliable indicators of fundamental similarity', and the warrant application will then be rubber stamped by a judge.
An analogous situation would be where I send a sealed envelope with some documents to the police, writing on the outside 'I believe the contents of this envelope are proof that John Doe committed [specific crime]', and the police have to get a warrant to open the envelope. It's arguably more legally consistent, but in practice it just creates an extra stage of legal bureaucracy/delay with no appreciable impact on the eventual outcome.
Recall that the standard for issuance of a warrant is 'probable cause', not 'mathematically proven cause'. Hash collisions are a possibility, but a sufficiently unlikely one that it doesn't matter. Probable cause means 'a fair probability' based on independent evidence of some kind - testimony, observation, forensic results or so. Even a shitty hash function that's only 90% reliable is going to meet that threshold. In the 10% of cases where the opened file turns out to be a random image with no pornographic content it's a 'no harm no foul' situation.
For reference, a primer on hash collision probabilities: https://preshing.com/20110504/hash-collision-probabilities/
and a more detailed examination of common perceptual hashing algorithms (skip to table 3 for the collision probabilities): https://ceur-ws.org/Vol-2904/81.pdf
I think what a lot of people are implicitly arguing here is that the detection system needs to be perfect before anyone can do anything. Nobody wants the job of examining images to check if they're CP or not, so we've outsourced it to machines that do so with good-but-not-perfect accuracy and then pass the hot potato around until someone has to pollute their visual cortex with it.
Obviously we don't want to arrest or convict people based on computer output alone, but how good does it have to be (in % or odds terms) in order to begin an investigation - not of the alleged criminal, but of the evidence itself? Should companies like Google have to submit an estimate of the probability of hash collisions using their algorithm and based on the number of image hashes that exist on their servers at any given moment? Should they be required to submit source code used to derive that? What about the microcode of the silicon substrate on which the calculation is performed?
All other things being equal, what improvement will result here from adding another layer of administrative processing, whose outcome is predetermined?
Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]
#164"That, however, does not mean that Maher is entitled to relief from conviction. As the district court correctly ruled in the alternative, the good faith exception to the exclusionary rule supports denial of Maher’s suppression motion because, at the time authorities opened his uploaded file, they had a good faith basis to believe that no warrant was required." "Defendant [..] stands convicted following a guilty plea…
Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]
#165It seems like a large part of the ruling hinges on the fact that Google matched the image hash to a hash of a known child pornography image, but didn't require an employee to actually look at that image before reporting it to the police. If they had visually confirmed it was the image they suspected it was based on the hash then no warrant would have been required, but the judge reads that the image hash match is not…
The hashes involved in stuff like this, as with copyright auto-matching, are perceptual hashes ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptual_hashing ), not cryptographic hashes. False matches are common enough that perceptual hashing attacks are already a thing in use to manipulate search engine results (see the example in random paper on the subject https://gangw.cs.illinois.edu/PHashing.pdf ).
Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]
#166> Google’s hash match may well have established probable cause for a warrant to allow police to conduct a visual examination of the Maher file. Very reasonable. Google can flag accounts as CP, but then a judge still needs to issue a warrant for the police to actually go and look at the file. Good job court. Extra points for reasoning about hash values.
If the police “wanted” to look. But what if they were notified of the material? Then the police should not need a warrant, right?
Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]
#167It's crazy that the most dangerous people one regularly encounters can do anything they want as long as they believe they can do it. The good faith exemption has to be one of the most fascist laws on the books today. > "the good faith exception to the exclusionary rule supports denial of Maher’s suppression motion because, at the time authorities opened his uploaded file, they had a good faith basis to believe that n…
Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]
#168So now an algorithm can interpret the law better than a judge. It’s amazing how technology becomes judge and jury while privacy rights are left to a good faith interpretation. Are we really okay with letting an algorithmic click define the boundaries of privacy?
Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]
#169> Google’s hash match may well have established probable cause for a warrant to allow police to conduct a visual examination of the Maher file. Very reasonable. Google can flag accounts as CP, but then a judge still needs to issue a warrant for the police to actually go and look at the file. Good job court. Extra points for reasoning about hash values.
If the police “wanted” to look. But what if they were notified of the material? Then the police should not need a warrant, right?
Re: Google’s TOS doesn’t eliminate a user’s Fourth Amendment rights, judge rules [pdf]
#170> Google’s hash match may well have established probable cause for a warrant to allow police to conduct a visual examination of the Maher file. Very reasonable. Google can flag accounts as CP, but then a judge still needs to issue a warrant for the police to actually go and look at the file. Good job court. Extra points for reasoning about hash values.
If the police “wanted” to look. But what if they were notified of the material? Then the police should not need a warrant, right?