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It is fine not to like a piece of free software

neilzone.co.uk

31–35 of 35 posts

Re: It is fine not to like a piece of free software

#31
post #25

Let's consider how bizarre the opposites are: "it is compulsory to like free software" "You will be prevented from grumbling about the software" "Users must all patch or fork the software" "Everybody will be forced to use the software" "You will be punished if you express opinions" "You are not allowed to mute or block others" "You must not think about the opinions of others, but you must pay attention" Parsing out a…

Why should we respect grumbling users? Why should we listen, or selectively stop listening when we’re annoyed? You’re not my real dad. After all, being grumpy is fun. It also serves lots of needs - for the individual and for the community. Grumping is a soft way of expressing a perceived break of community norms and expectations, and it draws attention to the break. We have evolved emotions like this for a reason. “N…

Our emotions are not very well adapted to the internet environment with millions of strangers, echo chambers and so on. But the internet does allow to just ignore unwanted communication. Makes sense to use that when necessary.

Re: It is fine not to like a piece of free software

#32
post #26

What I think is unfortunate is where projects decide to write off user feedback only because the user in question hasn't contributed anything other than that feedback. Even if quite a lot of users are saying the same thing. It is, of course, their right. I just think it's unfortunate, especially when "users" and "potential developers" doesn't have a very big overlap.

I think it’s a mistake to broadly think of open source maintainers as vendors of free software, whose “job” is to make their users happy. Maintainers can do what they want. Complaining about missing features is like coming into someone’s house and criticising their furniture. The most important button on GitHub isn’t “create issue”. It’s “fork”. Use it to fix your own problems. When “users” and “potential developers”…

> I think it’s a mistake to broadly think of open source maintainers as vendors of free software, whose “job” is to make their users happy.

I can think of prominent projects that try to position themselves as "the one true FREE X and everyone should use it" - certainly implicitly, and certainly in the tone of their outreach. I think it's a mistake for open source projects in that mould to think of their users as ungrateful sods.

> Complaining about missing features is like coming into someone’s house and criticising their furniture.

I mean... yes? If you've invited me into your house and then decided that the sofa needs to move to its true home half-way up the stairs while I'm trying to climb them to get to the bathroom, then yes, that's your call, and yes, I'm going to point out that it's both brain-dead idiotic as a general idea and deeply inconvenient not just to me personally but to anyone else you might have over for dinner. You might, on hearing that feedback, decide that the living room is a better place for it after all. You might decide that the sofa is actually more comfortable at a 45 degree angle, and that nobody should be using the bathroom anyway, including you. I leave it to you to decide what the better outcome here would be.

> Maintainers can do what they want.

As I said. It doesn't mean that dismissing people who functionally can only contribute feedback from their own experiences is a smart move.

> The most important button on GitHub isn’t “create issue”. It’s “fork”. Use it to fix your own problems.

Did you miss the bit where "users" and "potential developers" doesn't overlap much? I can think of one project where I'm certainly capable of doing this - I've contributed the odd patch in the past - but keeping pace with the rate of change in the underlying project is completely impossible given the time available. And that includes rate of creation of new things to fix, so it's not just merge issues. That takes me out of the pool of "potential developers". Fundamentally it's unreasonable to expect people to keep up with major projects where there are several people employed to work on it full-time, especially where there are multiple projects this could apply to that I might need to track. That doesn't put requirements on the upstream projects other than not to gaslight users into feeling bad that they can't do this.

> When “users” and “potential developers” don’t have overlap, the developers often feel pressure to act as unpaid customer support reps.

The problem is often not the developers themselves. Successful projects attract hangers-on with an itchy defend-the-project-from-all-comers trigger finger. Now they aren't contributing to the meat of the project directly either, but because they have a self-identity tightly wound with the project they appear to perform a useful function in reducing noise and are tolerated in the community. The problem is that they reject at least as much signal, and anyone whose first interaction with the community is a supercilious dismissal from one of these types is just going to back away and never return.

Re: It is fine not to like a piece of free software

#33
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we respect grumbling users? Why should we listen, or selectively stop listening when we’re annoyed? You’re not my real dad. After all, being grumpy is fun. It also serves lots of needs - for the individual and for the community. Grumping is a soft way of expressing a perceived break of community norms and expectations, and it draws attention to the break. We have evolved emotions like this for a reason. “N…

Our emotions are not very well adapted to the internet environment with millions of strangers, echo chambers and so on. But the internet does allow to just ignore unwanted communication. Makes sense to use that when necessary.

Most of our emotions are adapted just fine. The things that get in the way are:

- People suppress some of their feelings. Especially people in certain cultures with certain feelings (Californians & Canadians with anger, Australians & Brits with pride, etc). Suppression also means nobody knows how to receive that feeling and they get weird.

- When you suppress certain emotions, they don’t get a chance to “grow up” from a childish expression to an adult expression. Adult anger looks different from child anger.

Ignore things if you want. But I think that’s a lower skill, worse outcome choice in general.

Re: It is fine not to like a piece of free software

#34
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s a mistake to broadly think of open source maintainers as vendors of free software, whose “job” is to make their users happy. Maintainers can do what they want. Complaining about missing features is like coming into someone’s house and criticising their furniture. The most important button on GitHub isn’t “create issue”. It’s “fork”. Use it to fix your own problems. When “users” and “potential developers”…

> I think it’s a mistake to broadly think of open source maintainers as vendors of free software, whose “job” is to make their users happy. I can think of prominent projects that try to position themselves as "the one true FREE X and everyone should use it" - certainly implicitly, and certainly in the tone of their outreach. I think it's a mistake for open source projects in that mould to think of their users as ungr…

Yes; maybe it’s worth making a distinction here. There are certainly plenty of big, well known opensource projects which essentially bill themselves as a free, community supported product complete with (community) support and everything that goes along with that. And I think a lot of opensource projects aspire to provide that kind of support to the community.

But certainly not all. Probably not even most, if we count projects on GitHub. Just because react has paid maintainers employed by Facebook doesn’t mean the same is true of joe random's library on npm.

Even within ecosystems where support and maintenance happen, users still aren’t customers. Continuing the metaphor, imagine I invite you as a guest to my house. You arrive and my house is messy. It’s quite rude to moan and complain and make a thing of it. If you’re paying for an airbnb room, the situation would be quite different.

I suppose the main point I’m making is that I wish people had more humility and gratitude when they ask for support / features / bug fixes from an opensource project. Nobody is entitled to make needy demands of a maintainer’s time.

Re: It is fine not to like a piece of free software

#35
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “everyone will not just X” issue is, I think, less of an obstacle when you don’t need the “everyone” part. If “Y% of people just did X, then things would be Y% • Z amount better” is a much better plan than “if everyone just did X, then the problem would be solved.” . Some proportion of people are likely to be convinced by an argument that they should do something because it would make things better if they did. Y…

> Some proportion of people are likely to be convinced by an argument that they should do something because it would make things better if they did "it would make things better if they did" is an incentive. As incentives go, it's a fairly weak one that doesn't tend to convince people The problem with this sort of incentive in internet comment sections is that a lot of the nasty people don't tend to stick around long.…

Well, is “responding to someone saying ‘if people (“just”) do X, then Z” really “spontaneous”?

Like, presumably the person saying something like that at least thinks that the people listening would prefer Z to be the case. If they are right, then, if marginal increases in the doing of X results in marginal increases of Z, and the people listening want Z, then saying “the more you X, the more Z” seems like a sometimes reasonably effective way to cause more Z by causing people to do more X.

You can call that “an incentive” if you want - that wouldn’t be incorrect - though I think that word often has connotations of “artificial external incentive”, and I don’t think that’s always so necessary.

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