Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers • Hacker News Board

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#81

Post by suresk » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 8:47 AM UTC

zwieback wrote: post #12

We hear this a lot and somehow feel it's true but there are no reliable metrics and little verifiable data so ultimately it's just talk.

The first rule of Rockstar Developer Club is that you always talk about Rockstar Developer Club.

It certainly seems like there is an element of truth to the numbers, but I think they tend to be both drastically overstated (there are fewer cases where there is a drastic difference and/or the difference doesn't matter) and drastically understated (there are cases where one developer can accomplish something that another simply can't, making the difference infinite).

So much time is spent trying to point out and quantify this difference, often in an implicitly self-congratulatory manner, and I think it would be better off spending that energy on:

1) Figuring out how to quantify developer skill, or at least come up with roughly accurate ways to determine whether or not a developer is appropriate for a given task. We, as an industry, are pretty bad at this.

2) Figure out ways to move more developers from the B & C camps into the A camp, insofar as we can actually identify those distinct camps.

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#82

Post by diminium » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 8:53 AM UTC

Plus A players have a tendency to care a lot more about their own knowledge that it allowed Steve Jobs to yell at them to improve their efficiency.

If Jobs yelled at a typical B player or corporate drone, they would just take it and go on and maybe sit at the bar wallowing in their sorrows.

With A players, Jobs would tap into their insecurity that they might not be smart enough causing them to want to learn more to close that insecurity which then allows then to produce a better product. Their fear that they may not be smart enough would cause them to become even smarter.

Jobs needed A players otherwise his "motivational techniques" would fall flat.

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#83

Post by mkramlich » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 9:26 AM UTC

rizzom5000 wrote: post #74

mkramlich wrote: post #68

Considering this is a man who's built one of the world's most successful computer software and hardware companies, I think it's safe to say he knows whereof he speaks. And we can put this question to rest. And I think the exact number or ratio is not important, and probably not measureable. But I bet anyone who's been around long enough, exposed to wide enough variety of programmers, will agree that there is a wide r…

I admire and respect Steve Jobs as a businessman. I don't admire and respect him as an engineer, and certainly don't admire and respect him as a scientist. The differences are subtle and staggering all at once. I disagree that the question can be put to rest. Your logic follows from a fallacy known as 'Argument from Authority' or 'argumentum ad verecundiam'. I understand that the comments on this board are derived fr…

Don't think in terms of "the rules of debate". Think in terms of evidence, experience and analysis. What I'm saying, and I think the place that Steve Jobs was speaking from, and I think others are speaking from, is from actual direct experience with lots of folks in the real world. Forget proper "data". Forget authority, personally. What I was saying was, look, for the folks that do need an appeal to authority (because they have no experience themselves, or can't do the analysis themselves) the Jobs quote should be money for them. And it doesn't matter whether Jobs was an engineer or not. He worked closely with and led, and hired/fired hundreds of engineers over the years, starting with the Woz himself, and so he's seen firsthand the variety out there in terms of talent, knowledge, skill, attitude, work ethic, etc. It's irrelevant whether he's an engineer or scientist. By being an entrepreneurial business guy in the computer field over the course of 30+ years, at the helm of a company that "kicked ass and took names" in at least two distinct periods under his watch, there's a reasonable case to be made that he knows whereof he speaks. Could he be wrong? Could he be stupid? That's not the smart way to bet.

Also, related: one doesn't need to cite data or academic papers or construct airtight debate-worthy logical arguments to reach conclusions like, gosh, pizza comes in a wide variety of topping mixes, flavors and quality levels. Just experience a bunch of different pizza over the years! Done. :)

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#84

Post by Jabbles » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 9:42 AM UTC

jasonkester wrote: post #73

TimGebhardt wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fake it 'til you make it. Throw yourself at problems that you think are over your head. If you care and you want to do good work you'll figure out a way to get something done. Especially if you have a good mentor or someone that can guide you to answers to hard questions or take you under their wing. Learn to effectively communicate and then communicate with your peers. You'll never know what you don't know unless yo…

Are you sure "fake it til you make it" is the correct term for this idea? I'm familiar with the term, but usually in a different context. Regardless, you're spot on. My silly anecdote: Back in university I used to play pick-up two's volleyball a couple nights a week. At the other end of that same gym, the school team would practice, occasionally overlapping with the pick-up folks. One day, their practice broke up aro…

If you're interested in anecdotes about this, consider reading http://thedanplan.com/blog/ - Dan quit his job to learn to play golf, something he'd never done before. Currently he's at 3000 hours of practice...

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#85

Post by pessimist » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 10:04 AM UTC

I think this 100x rule is not unique to software. Consider athletes for example. The best athletes are much much better than the merely very good. For example, the top tennis player would defeat the 500th best every single time barely losing a single game. And the world no. 500 would defeat a good amateur 6-0 6-0 (as David Foster Wallace found out).

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#86

Post by rodp » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 10:12 AM UTC

I believe there are many A players who perform on B or C level because they are managed by B or C players. Steve Jobs was an A-level CEO, who knew how to inspire his employees and ignite their potential to be 50 or 100 better. Not many CEOs are like that.

If an A-level developer can perform 50x or 100x better than average, I'd guess that an A-level CEO can perform 500x or 1000x better.

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#87

Post by ivanvanderbyl » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 10:13 AM UTC

TimGebhardt wrote: post #39

oacgnol wrote: post #13

A bit of a meta question: As someone who feels like a 'B' or even 'C' at times, what would it take to become an 'A' player? Is it predicated on pure talent alone, hard work, or experience? Even though I know I'm still a junior developer (~1 yr exp), I feel hopeless at times that I'll never approach being 'A' status especially knowing that I have many peers my age that are already far and away better than me. How woul…

Fake it 'til you make it. Throw yourself at problems that you think are over your head. If you care and you want to do good work you'll figure out a way to get something done. Especially if you have a good mentor or someone that can guide you to answers to hard questions or take you under their wing. Learn to effectively communicate and then communicate with your peers. You'll never know what you don't know unless yo…

That last bit is crucial - surround yourself with people smarter than you - otherwise you'll spend most of your time solving complex problems in inefficient ways, which could very much work against you.

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#88

Post by asto » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 10:17 AM UTC

oacgnol wrote: post #13

A bit of a meta question: As someone who feels like a 'B' or even 'C' at times, what would it take to become an 'A' player? Is it predicated on pure talent alone, hard work, or experience? Even though I know I'm still a junior developer (~1 yr exp), I feel hopeless at times that I'll never approach being 'A' status especially knowing that I have many peers my age that are already far and away better than me. How woul…

I'm where oacgnol is at too. Just as an addendum to what he said, are there any pro programmers here who went from C to A? How much time did this take you? I feel like I struggled way too much to much to get basic computing concepts - netmasks, bitshifts, c pointers... Don't even get me started on how much javascript confounds me! :-D

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#89

Post by AngryParsley » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 10:27 AM UTC

pessimist wrote: post #85

I think this 100x rule is not unique to software. Consider athletes for example. The best athletes are much much better than the merely very good. For example, the top tennis player would defeat the 500th best every single time barely losing a single game. And the world no. 500 would defeat a good amateur 6-0 6-0 (as David Foster Wallace found out).

I think you're right about the disparity applying elsewhere, but I disagree with your example of athletes. Beating an opponent consistently is not the same as beating an opponent by a factor of 50. For example: I'm no sprinter, but Usain Bolt runs less than 2x faster than me. And there are thousands of athletes who are a few percent slower than the best. They don't even get to the Olympic qualifiers.

On the other hand, I've seen productivity vary drastically among knowledge workers. It would be interesting to see studies involving actual numbers, since I think 10x between average and best is an exaggeration. Worst and best, maybe. But a lot of that is because the worst programmers can cause more problems than they solve.

Re: Steve Jobs on Average vs Best Software Developers

#90

Post by daeken » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 10:38 AM UTC

AngryParsley wrote: post #89

pessimist wrote: post #85

I think this 100x rule is not unique to software. Consider athletes for example. The best athletes are much much better than the merely very good. For example, the top tennis player would defeat the 500th best every single time barely losing a single game. And the world no. 500 would defeat a good amateur 6-0 6-0 (as David Foster Wallace found out).

I think you're right about the disparity applying elsewhere, but I disagree with your example of athletes. Beating an opponent consistently is not the same as beating an opponent by a factor of 50. For example: I'm no sprinter, but Usain Bolt runs less than 2x faster than me. And there are thousands of athletes who are a few percent slower than the best. They don't even get to the Olympic qualifiers. On the other han…

I'd argue that in the case of something like sprinting, looking at it in a linear way isn't going to get you much. I don't know much about it, but it seems to me that every time you cut X seconds off your time, it's that much harder to get down to X2. If you looked at it from some sort of a logarithmic basis, I find it really unlikely that Usain Bolt is just* 2x faster than you.