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Buy payphones and retire

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Re: Buy payphones and retire

#171
post #106
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If the goal is to have a system where everyone can have passive income, then achieving that goal is the end of the world. If AI and robotics continue to be developed, then eventually most human labor becomes uneconomical by comparison. At that point, the system provides passive income on a mass scale (UBI) to prevent its own violent destruction. At least, that's the good ending.

To me, a major obstacle on the path to UBI is that it seems to conflict with the interests of those who benefit from the current status quo. If everyone receives a sufficient basic income, who will fix their toilets or clean their yachts? If the answer is ’no one’, then I’m afraid we’ll need significant advances in automation and robotics—or pitchforks—before we see UBI implemented. But my point of view may be simpli…

Existing welfare schemes do a lot to approximate a UBI scheme, just with a lot more overhead, paperwork, moral grandstanding, various other inefficiencies that lower the useful amounts, and stress for all involved. Still, if a UBI scheme were implemented today instead, I don't think much would change from the current status quo. It would probably provide for living comfortably enough, but not enough to buy whatever desired luxury or experience at any given moment. That's sufficient for a market to form. Whether labor activities like fixing toilets or cleaning yachts survive depends on the market price for such labor. Some activities will go away (like a well-swept shop) because the price floor is too high and automation hasn't caught up or been made cheap enough, some will just become more expensive, more and more will get automated over time.

Re: Buy payphones and retire

#172

The concept of "passive income" is almost a scissor concept. Or maybe only if you couple it with the categorical imperitive. On the one hand, it's so obviously true that it would be great to have passive income. Draw the salary you're drawing now, with some growth, and not have to work. On the other hand, if everyone had access to this capability then society and civilization would grind to a halt. People make things…

See also

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_thrift

Re: Buy payphones and retire

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"passive income", in it's original iteration, wasn't the idea that you could make money by doing nothing. The idea was that you made something or did something that you were uniquely able to make or do, and then the result of your labour would make money for you while you put in minimal continued effort. the version of passive income where you don't do anything productive at all, ever, and just put up some initial ca…

> the version of passive income where you don't do anything productive at all, ever, and just put up some initial capital in exchange for even more money back, is always a scam No, that's just investing. This is how savings accounts work, this is how CDs work, this is how treasury bonds work, this is how passive investing (e.g. via ETFs on index funds) works, and there are many, many more examples. If you're keeping…

> No, that's just investing.

Yes. Investing is passive income. If you have $20M and your lifestyle requires no more than $800K/yr of income taxed a waaaaay lower rates than the working stiffs pay on the same, then a 4% return more than suffices to live off of income that is waaaaay more passive than most passive income frauds even come close to promising.

The difference between "investing" and "passive income" is mostly just the difference between blue blood and the new rich. A tale as old as time.

Working men of the world uniting would be an utter disaster, so instead they're persuaded at any cost to choose sides in this absurd dichotomy between two sets of do-nothings.

Re: Buy payphones and retire

#174
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, though it's important to note that the economic notion of value is weighted according to wealth and therefore more than a bit weird. Feeding an orphan creates no "value" because they have no money to pay you with, while merging companies into a mega-monopoly that can shake down the rest of the economy creates loads of "value" because it pays rich investors huge dividends. Of course, there are plenty of honest wa…

> Feeding an orphan creates no "value" because they have no money to pay you with Only because it’s illegal to make them work? I imagine it could be quite lucrative.

Big bad government enforcing those pesky human rights.

Re: Buy payphones and retire

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"passive income", in it's original iteration, wasn't the idea that you could make money by doing nothing. The idea was that you made something or did something that you were uniquely able to make or do, and then the result of your labour would make money for you while you put in minimal continued effort. the version of passive income where you don't do anything productive at all, ever, and just put up some initial ca…

> the version of passive income where you don't do anything productive at all, ever, and just put up some initial capital in exchange for even more money back, is always a scam No, that's just investing. This is how savings accounts work, this is how CDs work, this is how treasury bonds work, this is how passive investing (e.g. via ETFs on index funds) works, and there are many, many more examples. If you're keeping…

> Bonds have (relatively) low returns but almost 0 risk

Each of the asset classes you listed has risks. Bonds are subject to term (i.e. inflation) and credit (i.e. default) risk.

Bonds may be less volatile than equities and commodities, but they can definitely go down (e.g. 2022).

The only free lunch in investing is diversification.

Re: Buy payphones and retire

#176
post #171
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, a major obstacle on the path to UBI is that it seems to conflict with the interests of those who benefit from the current status quo. If everyone receives a sufficient basic income, who will fix their toilets or clean their yachts? If the answer is ’no one’, then I’m afraid we’ll need significant advances in automation and robotics—or pitchforks—before we see UBI implemented. But my point of view may be simpli…

Existing welfare schemes do a lot to approximate a UBI scheme, just with a lot more overhead, paperwork, moral grandstanding, various other inefficiencies that lower the useful amounts, and stress for all involved. Still, if a UBI scheme were implemented today instead, I don't think much would change from the current status quo. It would probably provide for living comfortably enough, but not enough to buy whatever d…

> It would probably provide for living comfortably

Not if we increase the amount of money compared to what's currently spent on welfare by several times. Or if we don't and just replace current targeted welfare schemes with UBI the people who can't actually work will just be reduced to extreme poverty.

e.g. US Federal revenue is ~$13k and spending $18k per capita and that includes everything. Even if it were somehow possible to double tax revenue with no negative outcomes it would hardly be sufficient.

Re: Buy payphones and retire

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny how often you hear "put your money to work". Money doesn't work, people do! If you receive a monthly income by doing nothing, you're taking from someone else's work.

While technically true, this could still be a great trade for all involved. If you invest in shares in a company, you are a link in the chain to that company existing at all, employing people, serving customers, and paying a dividend to shareholders. Employees have a job and income without the need to come up with the initial capital to start the venture and the associated risk of no income for a while. If you invest…

Both can be true.

- Investing provides benefits for society at large - Investors are exploiting the labour of others for their own gain

(but also your examples only work in a very weird worldview where everything is privatised, but I don't want to bother discussing that on this website)

Re: Buy payphones and retire

#178

The concept of "passive income" is almost a scissor concept. Or maybe only if you couple it with the categorical imperitive. On the one hand, it's so obviously true that it would be great to have passive income. Draw the salary you're drawing now, with some growth, and not have to work. On the other hand, if everyone had access to this capability then society and civilization would grind to a halt. People make things…

The categorical imperative is a useful philosophical tool, but it's very easily misused.

I'll go to the grocery store tomorrow. Is that moral?

Well if all 8 billion people also went to that grocery store at the same time, it would be a horrific tragedy, probably with billions dead.

The actual principle is about whether the principle or maxim behind the action can be consistently applied as a universal law.

Re: Buy payphones and retire

#179

The concept of "passive income" is almost a scissor concept. Or maybe only if you couple it with the categorical imperitive. On the one hand, it's so obviously true that it would be great to have passive income. Draw the salary you're drawing now, with some growth, and not have to work. On the other hand, if everyone had access to this capability then society and civilization would grind to a halt. People make things…

It's funny how often you hear "put your money to work". Money doesn't work, people do! If you receive a monthly income by doing nothing, you're taking from someone else's work.

The money is given voluntarily, so no one is "taking" anything.

Re: Buy payphones and retire

#180

The concept of "passive income" is almost a scissor concept. Or maybe only if you couple it with the categorical imperitive. On the one hand, it's so obviously true that it would be great to have passive income. Draw the salary you're drawing now, with some growth, and not have to work. On the other hand, if everyone had access to this capability then society and civilization would grind to a halt. People make things…

I don’t think people generally agree that rent is a bad thing. Providing housing has value
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