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It is fine not to like a piece of free software

neilzone.co.uk

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Re: It is fine not to like a piece of free software

#11
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard a thought recently that went something along the lines of "if any outcome requires 'everyone to just X' then it is not a realistic outcome because everyone will not just X" I've started to apply this line of reasoning to things like this. "If everyone would just be nicer" sounds great, but we can't expect it to happen. It sounds defeatist but I think it can also be used to try and reframe things to find real…

The “everyone will not just X” issue is, I think, less of an obstacle when you don’t need the “everyone” part. If “Y% of people just did X, then things would be Y% • Z amount better” is a much better plan than “if everyone just did X, then the problem would be solved.” . Some proportion of people are likely to be convinced by an argument that they should do something because it would make things better if they did. Y…

> Some proportion of people are likely to be convinced by an argument that they should do something because it would make things better if they did

"it would make things better if they did" is an incentive. As incentives go, it's a fairly weak one that doesn't tend to convince people

The problem with this sort of incentive in internet comment sections is that a lot of the nasty people don't tend to stick around long. They may just be doing a drive by nasty post. They may have even made a new burner account just to make one post.

If people are transient, then they will never see the outcome of "it would make things better", so they never reap any benefit from it

Anyways, my point was that argument is still trying to convince people of an incentive

Edit: I suppose what this is highlighting is that the "people will not just X" is really more "people will not just (spontaneously) X".

You need to give them reasons to X, if you want them to X.

Re: It is fine not to like a piece of free software

#12
>> Although I feel differently about companies benefiting from the commercial distribution but which do not fix accessibility or security issues.

Companies are free to use the software, and commercially distribute it, and are free to change it, or not to change it as they want.

This is explicitly baked into Free licenses.

Your feelings are not material to the freedoms.

Re: It is fine not to like a piece of free software

#13

The rotten tomatoes of open source is the sharevalue of the company providing a paid alternative. https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/stocks/adsk Here is the usability rating of blender visualized as history.

>> The rotten tomatoes of open source is the sharevalue of the company providing a paid alternative.

I love this statement. It feels like it should be right, and st first glance it makes sense.

The problem I guess is that things aren't boxed so neatly. Most public companies have multiple products.

So, for example Microsoft share price doesn't reflect Linux quality because MS share price covers not just Windows but Azure et al. One can compare market share for desktop users (ie comparing windows to Linux desktop) but that's a very narrow focus that doesn't even extend to Windows Server vs Linux.

And it's not like googles share price is a reflection on Firefox, or Oracles is a reflection on PostgreSQL.

I love the line, it's well written, but alas it's likely not really true (most of the time.)

Re: It is fine not to like a piece of free software

#14

>> Although I feel differently about companies benefiting from the commercial distribution but which do not fix accessibility or security issues. Companies are free to use the software, and commercially distribute it, and are free to change it, or not to change it as they want. This is explicitly baked into Free licenses. Your feelings are not material to the freedoms.

he told us his feelings about companies that don't fix security and accessibility issues... why are you pointing out legal requirements, those legal requirements are not material to his feelings.

Should we now start to go back and forth on all the other things that are unrelated to these two different things?

Re: It is fine not to like a piece of free software

#15

>> Although I feel differently about companies benefiting from the commercial distribution but which do not fix accessibility or security issues. Companies are free to use the software, and commercially distribute it, and are free to change it, or not to change it as they want. This is explicitly baked into Free licenses. Your feelings are not material to the freedoms.

So what? It's not because something is legal that you can't discuss it.

Re: It is fine not to like a piece of free software

#16

>> Although I feel differently about companies benefiting from the commercial distribution but which do not fix accessibility or security issues. Companies are free to use the software, and commercially distribute it, and are free to change it, or not to change it as they want. This is explicitly baked into Free licenses. Your feelings are not material to the freedoms.

Sure, that's legally true, but it's normal and natural to have feelings about things that are different from the legal reality.

Re: It is fine not to like a piece of free software

#17
Let's consider how bizarre the opposites are:

"it is compulsory to like free software"

"You will be prevented from grumbling about the software"

"Users must all patch or fork the software"

"Everybody will be forced to use the software"

"You will be punished if you express opinions"

"You are not allowed to mute or block others"

"You must not think about the opinions of others, but you must pay attention"

Parsing out all the bizarrely obvious stuff from this post, if we try to distill it down to an opinion, what's hidden in there? It should be expressed in terms of good and bad, not liberty. The liberty is obvious. What's it saying about what people ought to do?

* Devs ought to respect their grumbling users. They ought not be pissy about users who grumble but don't contribute. They ought not have some insular concept of loyalty where users who use other software are outsiders or splitters.

* Devs ought to selectively ignore their grumbling users, though, and contributors, instead of acting like slaves and getting burnt out. In this there's an implication that it's right to think you own your (version of your) project, and that you should control it if that pleases you.

* We should communicate our opinions, should not harass anyone, and should stop listening when bored or annoyed.

It all makes more sense when couched in moralistic terms, I think. Because it's not in fact about freedoms.

Re: It is fine not to like a piece of free software

#18

This guy is correct, of course. But this comes off to me a bit like "how is cyber bullying real? Like just close your eyes lmao". Yes, everyone is free to do and not do all those things. I assume TFA is writing this due to, yknow, all the various complainings about large (and or small-but-popular) OSS projects being inundated by grumblings and the devs feeling burned out and lashing out in response etc. I guess my ma…

It would help to abandon platforms that encourage harassment. Or if such platforms actually bothered to fix their design. It doesn't matter if the encouragement is purposeful or by accident. Have you noticed that those discussions weren't common before people adopted GitHub?

Usenet was much worse, the way I remember it.

Re: It is fine not to like a piece of free software

#19

Let's consider how bizarre the opposites are: "it is compulsory to like free software" "You will be prevented from grumbling about the software" "Users must all patch or fork the software" "Everybody will be forced to use the software" "You will be punished if you express opinions" "You are not allowed to mute or block others" "You must not think about the opinions of others, but you must pay attention" Parsing out a…

That's so much more useful, thanks.

Re: It is fine not to like a piece of free software

#20

This guy is correct, of course. But this comes off to me a bit like "how is cyber bullying real? Like just close your eyes lmao". Yes, everyone is free to do and not do all those things. I assume TFA is writing this due to, yknow, all the various complainings about large (and or small-but-popular) OSS projects being inundated by grumblings and the devs feeling burned out and lashing out in response etc. I guess my ma…

It would help to abandon platforms that encourage harassment. Or if such platforms actually bothered to fix their design. It doesn't matter if the encouragement is purposeful or by accident. Have you noticed that those discussions weren't common before people adopted GitHub?

> Have you noticed that those discussions weren't common before people adopted GitHub?

This is objectively not true.

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