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On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

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Re: On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

#61

Post by mdp2021 »

protomolecule wrote: post #53
mdp2021 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you misunderstood the statement. That article on the Register I had abundantly read when it came out. The poster should show that that one sentence from Torvalds could be dismissed - we do not know exactly what interventions he called "trolls". Maybe they were, maybe they were not.

You can read the part of the lkml thread preceding Linus' message.

You mean, all the exchanges before https://lore.kernel.org/all/CAHk-=whNGNVnYHHSXUAsWds_MoZ-iEg...

I will still prefer to suspend judgement as it is not immediate what was in Linus' mind when he accused some of being trolls (on suspicion of being organized trolls). He is there and knows names and past - we the outsiders should get properly acquainted with all of that.

Surely, this outcome feels like better-if-avoided collateral damage.

Re: On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

#62

Post by mdp2021 »

chikere232 wrote: post #16

At this point I kinda have to assume posts like these are just concern trolling and aren't really worth taking seriously If it's genuinely naive, this is a great time to wake up to the fact that russia is conducting a war of conquest against a european country, and this is why they, and a bunch of companies associated with that, are being sanctioned. Why would any reasonable project try to circumvent such sanctions?

> Why would any reasonable project try to circumvent such sanctions

Well, first they should be convinced that the sanction makes sense. It does not matter if it is the "law", an "order" or anything similar: you are responsible of what you do - including what you comply to.

Maybe it does make sense, maybe it does not: from the outside, with limited information about the original decree, it seems perplexing. Surely it raises questions.

For what your post is concerned, the war and the contributions to the Kernel do not have solid links between them - the jump from "there is a war" and "some contractors are inhibited contribution to the Linux kernel" is all to be justified. (The law is not a justification: the law requires justification.)

Re: On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

#63

Post by joric »

throwaway13337 wrote: post #30

It's people that work for Russian state owned companies - not just Russians in general. A lot of the discourse wants to muddy the water to make it sound like it is against all those of Russian background - it is not. Russian people are not the Russian state. Blurring the lines only polarizes which, I imagine, is often the intent. This article's framing is disingenuous.

Are they though? Owning a mail.ru email doesn't mean anything, it's a public mail. Corporate email would be corp.mail.ru. They also banned a guy that lives in USA for 10+ years for netup.ru which is not even sanctioned. And a gmail guy, apparently for Baikal Electronics that went bankrupt an year ago (August 2023).

Re: On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

#64

Post by akira2501 »

Arainach wrote: post #5
akira2501 wrote: post #3

You could just ask them to use an email address hosted outside of Russia for their kernel development work if visible compliance was the only issue. To not offer them a remedy and to exclude people on the basis of their first or last name is a bizarre overreaction to me. It stands no chance of damaging the Russian government and can only harm the project and open source in general, I'm not sure why a non-profit would…

These people are employed by companies specifically called out on sanctions, not excluded "due to first or last name".

> These people are employed by companies specifically called out on sanctions

I don't believe you know this for a fact. Are you able to point me where a list of each developer, their association, and the problem with that association is enumerated?

> not excluded "due to first or last name"

https://lkml.org/lkml/2024/10/24/177

Re: On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

#65

Post by mdp2021 »

tharmas wrote: post #58
chikere232 wrote: post #16

At this point I kinda have to assume posts like these are just concern trolling and aren't really worth taking seriously If it's genuinely naive, this is a great time to wake up to the fact that russia is conducting a war of conquest against a european country, and this is why they, and a bunch of companies associated with that, are being sanctioned. Why would any reasonable project try to circumvent such sanctions?

Please see Prof John Mearsheimer regarding Ukraine.

What, of JM.? He has published much - some of quality and some weak.

None of what I read of him seems relevant.

Re: On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

#66

Post by comonoid »

sligor wrote: post #17

People should stop to use the term "Russian developers", this attracts a lot of people complaining about Russophobia (either innocently or not...) They were removed NOT because of being Russian but because of their link to Russian state owned company (also, either legitimately or by mistake...)

Some people was removed because their email domain name ends with .ru.

Just in case, while mail.ru domain belongs to VK (if I'm not wrong), it's a public email service like gmail.com.

Re: On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

#67

Post by mardifoufs »

chikere232 wrote: post #16

At this point I kinda have to assume posts like these are just concern trolling and aren't really worth taking seriously If it's genuinely naive, this is a great time to wake up to the fact that russia is conducting a war of conquest against a european country, and this is why they, and a bunch of companies associated with that, are being sanctioned. Why would any reasonable project try to circumvent such sanctions?

It's amazing that your comment talks about concern trolling while at the same time says: "it's time to wake up to the fact that russia is conducting a war of conquest.."

Yes, everyone knows that. The issue is how you could assert guilt by mere ownership of a passport. No sanction that I'm aware forbids any Russian national (even if say, living in Europe) from working on something. The cringy way Linus got the message out was also super weird. Trying to make the debate about something else is the concern trolling here.

Re: On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

#68

Post by mardifoufs »

krisoft wrote: post #33
AndyMcConachie wrote: post #13

If certain people cannot contribute to the Linux kernel because of a list maintained by the USG then perhaps it's time for Linux kernel development to no longer be dependent on US law. We should realize this has nothing to do with Russia or the Russian government. This could happen with any country and any group of people. The USG is constantly expanding their sanctions regime. Thus, we need to ask ourselves the obvi…

> This could happen with any country and any group of people. And that is why it is a good idea to keep people who want to start a war of conquest out of power. So it doesn’t happen to your country and your people. > Who will be next? Whoever decides to murder their neighbhours.

Ah yes, I'm waiting for the kernel to remove Israeli contributors any day now. Any contributor with an .il email is literally killing Lebanese children according your logic.

Re: On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

#69

Post by mardifoufs »

krisoft wrote: post #51
instagraham wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It matters because software projects are border-agnostic. There are people who benefit from code, and people who benefit from having people contribute to code. You drew the line on who gets to be a part of this, Geopoliticising something ostensibly unpolitical. If you want a rule of law in code, you’ll need more than a framework that only punishes Russia. Otherwise it’s no longer open source, it’s America-source. For…

> I just don’t see what you expect Russians to do by nuking them from a Linux maintainer list. Finding alternative employment with a non-sactioned company would be a start.

I think you're under the false impression that the removals were aimed at specific contributors from specific corporations. Which isn't the case by the way.

Re: On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

#70

Post by Arainach »

akira2501 wrote: post #64
Arainach wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These people are employed by companies specifically called out on sanctions, not excluded "due to first or last name".

> These people are employed by companies specifically called out on sanctions I don't believe you know this for a fact. Are you able to point me where a list of each developer, their association, and the problem with that association is enumerated? > not excluded "due to first or last name" https://lkml.org/lkml/2024/10/24/177

That post has nothing about names. Serge works for Baikal Electronics who produces electronics for the Russian military and is explicitly sanctioned.
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