Live data from Hacker News

On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

laforge.gnumonks.org

31–40 of 84 posts

Re: On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

#31

If certain people cannot contribute to the Linux kernel because of a list maintained by the USG then perhaps it's time for Linux kernel development to no longer be dependent on US law. We should realize this has nothing to do with Russia or the Russian government. This could happen with any country and any group of people. The USG is constantly expanding their sanctions regime. Thus, we need to ask ourselves the obvi…

Sanctioning russia for invading ukraine isn't exactly an arbitrary power trip. Complying with such sanctions is the morally right thing to do here

First words of the post: «If certain people cannot contribute to the Linux kernel because of a list».

Issue is raised against the specifics (validity, effectiveness, sense) of possible sanctions.

John parks his car blocking your gate. Sanction A: you paint his car mauve. Sanction B: John's cousin is forbidden providing voluntary work. Sanction A and B are very different and some raise debate more than others.

(If you want a more "actual" example - though besides official governmental actions - there have been pressing debates whether athletes holding some passport can can compete in international games.)

Re: On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

#32
I find it sad that there are so many reductive comments here. The author of this article is very nuanced:

Should U.S. developers have been sanctioned over the Iraq war that was launched under false pretenses (non-existent WMD)?

Should company sanctions apply to individuals who happen to work for such a company?

Should the matter have been handled more gracefully than a stealthy removal from the MAINTAINERS file?

Has the culture of the Linux Kernel changed?

The culture has certainly changed, almost all big OSS projects have been captured and are essentially governed by corporations.

Perhaps Torvalds has been legally pressured, but 20 years ago he would have put up a fight at least. Back then everyone was proud that OSS could be used by anyone for anything. Now he attacks critics with the Russian troll meme. This is the worst of Torvalds I have seen so far.

So far, he does not seem to have any issues with exporting the Linux Kernel to Russia, which should also be prohibited by sanctions.

Re: On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

#33

If certain people cannot contribute to the Linux kernel because of a list maintained by the USG then perhaps it's time for Linux kernel development to no longer be dependent on US law. We should realize this has nothing to do with Russia or the Russian government. This could happen with any country and any group of people. The USG is constantly expanding their sanctions regime. Thus, we need to ask ourselves the obvi…

> This could happen with any country and any group of people.

And that is why it is a good idea to keep people who want to start a war of conquest out of power. So it doesn’t happen to your country and your people.

> Who will be next?

Whoever decides to murder their neighbhours.

Re: On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

#34
post #32

I find it sad that there are so many reductive comments here. The author of this article is very nuanced: Should U.S. developers have been sanctioned over the Iraq war that was launched under false pretenses (non-existent WMD)? Should company sanctions apply to individuals who happen to work for such a company? Should the matter have been handled more gracefully than a stealthy removal from the MAINTAINERS file? Has…

- "exporting the Linux Kernel to Russia, which should also be prohibited by sanctions."

There's no export controls of non-commercial, non-ITAR software; such a thing would quickly run into a First Amendment wall. As PGP's Phil Zimmermann observed thirty years ago, you can always just print out your source code on paper and bind it as a book. Can the US government outlaw a book? Of course not.

- "In 1995, Zimmermann published the book PGP Source Code and Internals as a way to bypass limitations on exporting digital code. Zimmermann's introduction says the book contains "all of the C source code to a software package called PGP" and that the unusual publication in book form of the complete source code for a computer program was a direct response to the U.S. government's criminal investigation of Zimmermann for violations of U.S. export restrictions as a result of the international spread of PGP's use.[7]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Zimmermann#Arms_Export_Co...

Re: On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

#35
Apparently people working on open source are just looking for an excuse to pontificate. Same as with Bitwarden, simply raising the issue and then waiting a little for an answer is enough.

https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/e7d548a7fc835f9f3c9cb2e5ed97dfd...

> If your company is on the U.S. OFAC SDN lists, subject to an OFAC sanctions program, or owned/controlled by a company on the list, our ability to collaborate with you will be subject to restrictions, and you cannot be in the MAINTAINERS file.

That's all.

Both could've been handled better but there's no need to write ten thousand open source philosophy comments on the issue itself, bad articles and HN comments.

Re: On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

#37
post #35

Apparently people working on open source are just looking for an excuse to pontificate. Same as with Bitwarden, simply raising the issue and then waiting a little for an answer is enough. https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/e7d548a7fc835f9f3c9cb2e5ed97dfd... > If your company is on the U.S. OFAC SDN lists, subject to an OFAC sanctions program, or owned/controlled by a company on the list, our ability to collaborate with you…

> simpler [...] That's all

Actually it is not, because the confusion shifts to OFAC and the question becomes "why should people employed by companies under those identified by etc. be barred from contributing to the Linux Kernel".

Re: On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

#38
post #32

I find it sad that there are so many reductive comments here. The author of this article is very nuanced: Should U.S. developers have been sanctioned over the Iraq war that was launched under false pretenses (non-existent WMD)? Should company sanctions apply to individuals who happen to work for such a company? Should the matter have been handled more gracefully than a stealthy removal from the MAINTAINERS file? Has…

> Now he attacks critics with the Russian troll meme

You should really provide more grounds for stating that.

Re: On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

#39
post #38
post #32

I find it sad that there are so many reductive comments here. The author of this article is very nuanced: Should U.S. developers have been sanctioned over the Iraq war that was launched under false pretenses (non-existent WMD)? Should company sanctions apply to individuals who happen to work for such a company? Should the matter have been handled more gracefully than a stealthy removal from the MAINTAINERS file? Has…

> Now he attacks critics with the Russian troll meme You should really provide more grounds for stating that.

One second to find using Google:

https://www.theregister.com/2024/10/23/linus_torvalds_affirm...

Quote in the middle of the article.

Re: On Linux MAINTAINERS file removal of Russian developers

#40
post #33

If certain people cannot contribute to the Linux kernel because of a list maintained by the USG then perhaps it's time for Linux kernel development to no longer be dependent on US law. We should realize this has nothing to do with Russia or the Russian government. This could happen with any country and any group of people. The USG is constantly expanding their sanctions regime. Thus, we need to ask ourselves the obvi…

> This could happen with any country and any group of people. And that is why it is a good idea to keep people who want to start a war of conquest out of power. So it doesn’t happen to your country and your people. > Who will be next? Whoever decides to murder their neighbhours.

> Whoever decides to murder their neighbhours.

To what extent can most people actually move the needle of their government's actions?

As a thought experiment, consider a world where all Americans are banned from contributing to software projects because of the long and dismal history of US foreign policy - which involves murdering people so far from US borders as to make such murder fundamentally questionable at a national security level. While Americans protested the Vietnam and Iraq wars, these wars took place regardless. So how do you establish collective responsibility?

Does the fact that the protests took place make Americans immune from consequences? Or should it only matter if citizen movements can stop a government? In either case, you would find most of the G-20 responsible for some atrocity or the other.

The tragedy of the Russia situation is that it is a wholly unjust war, which should be penalised, but the logic and apparatus that would penalise it would also penalise most major nations. It is beyond the scope of HN to create a world order that would repair things. But just because the UNSC is broken, need not mean that the open source ecosystem be left to rot as well.

Post reply on HN