We can now fix McDonald's ice cream machines • Hacker News Board

Re: We can now fix McDonald's ice cream machines

#181

Post by dangus » Sat, Oct 26, 2024, 5:51 AM UTC

wokwokwok wrote: post #128

davidczech wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the same machine used for milkshakes? That's kind of staple of burger joints.

Yeah, but the point is that MacDonalds obviously doesn’t want to sell icecream. Maybe it’s low margin. Maybe cleaning is expensive. Maybe it helps having the promise of cheap ice cream but “sorry not right now” leading customers to buy other (more expensive) items. It’s not an incompetent organisation. If they wanted the machines to work, they would work. They don’t. So… if anything changes out of this, it will be to…

While I agree that the ice cream/milkshakes has been problematic for McDonald's from an operational standpoint, I think your business analysis is pretty terrible.

If anything, ice cream products represent a very profitable item that often serves as an upsell helping drive the APV (average purchase value) higher.

Milkshakes in particular have a unique "job to be done" in the drive-thru fast food industry: https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/clay-christensens-milkshake-marke...

They can be eaten easily in the car, can be savored slowly over time on a long commute, and are relatively filling and inexpensive. There are a lot of people who actually consume them earlier in the day before work because of those characteristics.

You'll notice that basically every burger chain offers milkshakes, and some even emphasize the shakes more than the food, like Shake Shack, Dairy Queen (which has quite good fast food burgers and food if you aren't aware), and Steak 'n Shake. They all do this because it's an extremely profitable product and a driver of high APV.

The ice cream machines at McDonald's also deliver multiple products: McFlurry, hot fudge sundae, milkshakes, and ice cream cones. One small machine that dispenses vanilla soft serve can make a whole bunch of products.

Re: We can now fix McDonald's ice cream machines

#182

Post by dangus » Sat, Oct 26, 2024, 5:56 AM UTC

bastawhiz wrote: post #151

wokwokwok wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but the point is that MacDonalds obviously doesn’t want to sell icecream. Maybe it’s low margin. Maybe cleaning is expensive. Maybe it helps having the promise of cheap ice cream but “sorry not right now” leading customers to buy other (more expensive) items. It’s not an incompetent organisation. If they wanted the machines to work, they would work. They don’t. So… if anything changes out of this, it will be to…

McDonald's also has no problem phasing out items from its menu. It does so with regularity. Why keep something on the menu that it doesn't want to sell? It either wants to sell it or it doesn't want to sell it.

Ice Cream products would be one of the last things they phase out.

First, the ice cream machine produces multiple products: milkshakes, McFlurries, hot fudge sundaes, and ice cream cones.

Second, dessert is an upsell and driver of APV. If you lack dessert options you basically leave money on the table from customers who are willing to buy dessert.

Third, the ice cream machine, despite its problems, is a pretty small and manageable piece of equipment. It doesn't need an employee to babysit it like a fryer or flat top. The only thing simpler at a McDonald's is the Apple Pie heater.

If you don't believe me, find a burger chain that doesn't have ice cream on the menu. Wendy's, Burger King, Shake Shack, Steak 'N Shake, In-N-Out, Whataburger, Culver's, Carl's Jr/Hardee's, seriously, which restaurant that serves burgers doesn't have ice cream/milkshakes?

Re: We can now fix McDonald's ice cream machines

#183

Post by dangus » Sat, Oct 26, 2024, 5:57 AM UTC

jessriedel wrote: post #17

mcdow wrote: post #9

Here's a great YT video on why McDonald's ice cream machines are always broken: https://youtu.be/SrDEtSlqJC4 TL;DW: there are some perverse incentives to keep them broken. Basically the owner operators are forced to use a particular brand by corporate. Corporate McDonalds has a deal with a particular ice cream machine company. That particular company is the only company owner operators are allowed to buy from, and th…

I don't understand the last sentence. If the machines are frequently broken, that damages the Macdonald's brand in the consumer's eyes. And if the franchisee's are paying unnecessary costs, making a Macdonald's franchise less lucrative for the owner-operator, that will lead to fewer franchises renewals and new franchises in the future.

I think the machines are broken way less often than people give McDonald's negativity over. In my estimation that's probably why corporate hasn't cared to fix the problem until recently.

Sure, a lot of people notice when they're broken, but a lot of people notice when AWS is down for an hour ~one time a year, too.

On top of that, depending where you are if your local McDonald's has a broken ice cream machine you probably aren't all that far away from another one. Perhaps corporate gets their sale either way?

Re: We can now fix McDonald's ice cream machines

#184

Post by loongloong » Sat, Oct 26, 2024, 6:04 AM UTC

MikeTheGreat wrote: post #168

SoftTalker wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, though it was not complicated. Just took a person about 45 minutes. That was to do the milkshake and the soft serve machine. Did it many, many times when I worked there.

Can I ask why it takes / took 45 minutes? That feels like a lot to clean one machine. Was that all 'active' time or was there a 'put things in the dishwasher / autoclave and let it sterilize for X minutes?' Were there a lot of separate parts to wash? Now I'm curious :)

Maybe a good idea to work for a short stint in a commercial kitchen?

Not a snark.. it's quite eye opening to see (and actually use) how much food a piece of commercial kitchen equipment processeses in a day and then how much effort it takes to clean them.

An example of cleaning a commercial deep fryer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFR5CN_kuI0

One can also try googling for other more detailed versions showing all the efforts in digging out all the burnt sediments/sludge :)

Re: We can now fix McDonald's ice cream machines

#185

Post by wokwokwok » Sat, Oct 26, 2024, 6:14 AM UTC

dangus wrote: post #181

wokwokwok wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but the point is that MacDonalds obviously doesn’t want to sell icecream. Maybe it’s low margin. Maybe cleaning is expensive. Maybe it helps having the promise of cheap ice cream but “sorry not right now” leading customers to buy other (more expensive) items. It’s not an incompetent organisation. If they wanted the machines to work, they would work. They don’t. So… if anything changes out of this, it will be to…

While I agree that the ice cream/milkshakes has been problematic for McDonald's from an operational standpoint, I think your business analysis is pretty terrible. If anything, ice cream products represent a very profitable item that often serves as an upsell helping drive the APV (average purchase value) higher. Milkshakes in particular have a unique "job to be done" in the drive-thru fast food industry: https://hbsw…

While some of that might be true, explain to me why an organisation like macdonalds would allow up to 30% of such machinery to be out of working order for years and years in high value areas.

Your analysis posits what, that they’re just blatantly incompetent?

I don’t believe that.

If the economics of a working ice cream machine were that good, it would be a solved problem.

You don’t run an organisation like MacDonalds with a basic inability to maintain infrastructure. Imagine if that was true of fryers? Or microwaves? That almost never happens. It’s clearly not a technical problem.

The only way that you could justify the continued maintenance failure you see is if the benefits of a working machine were negligible at best.

Perhaps what you say might be true in general but in this specific circumstance I think you’re applying an “in general…” kind of logic (like “in general more unit tests are better…”) which doesn’t ring true here, to me.

Re: We can now fix McDonald's ice cream machines

#186

Post by borski » Sat, Oct 26, 2024, 6:58 AM UTC

minitoar wrote: post #161

bonestamp2 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, and with these new machines, they should have two of them (for several reasons). I worked there for a couple years in high school and summertime was just order after order of ice cream. The lost profit from the only machine being broken, or during it's downtime to chill the soft serve liquid after a refill, would pay back the investment in one summer, not to mention the customer service improvement. The ad ca…

Is there anything stopping a franchise from putting 2? I think it can’t be required because they have to meet some sort of smallest viable footprint.

Cost, most likely.

Re: We can now fix McDonald's ice cream machines

#187

Post by jb1991 » Sat, Oct 26, 2024, 7:00 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #133

yuanchenxi95 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An irrelevant question. How did you index the related hackernews threads?

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40564558 and the links back from there and let me know if you still have a question :)

Something tells me this comes up a lot.

Re: We can now fix McDonald's ice cream machines

#188

Post by postepowanieadm » Sat, Oct 26, 2024, 7:01 AM UTC

8note wrote: post #137

subarctic wrote: post #41

> Meanwhile, Canada is in the final stages of considering legislation that would fix the Canadian version of the DMCA, a bill called C-244 that is in its third reading in the Senate and expected to move before the end of the month. If Canada legalized circumventing technological protection measures for the purposes of repair, we might just have to head north to find the tools we need to do repairs. That's good news,…

The government of Canada is really missing out by not selling this bill as a reason to keep them in power

I saw some tweets claiming people would vote He Who Cannot Be Named if McDonalds ice cream machines get fixed.

Re: We can now fix McDonald's ice cream machines

#189

Post by megablast » Sat, Oct 26, 2024, 7:04 AM UTC

bonestamp2 wrote: post #141

SoftTalker wrote: post #5

All of this was unnecessary on the old ice cream machines. The downside was they had to be cleaned and sanitized every night and that meant you needed one more person on the closing team. It was all about saving labor costs.

Agreed, and with these new machines, they should have two of them (for several reasons). I worked there for a couple years in high school and summertime was just order after order of ice cream. The lost profit from the only machine being broken, or during it's downtime to chill the soft serve liquid after a refill, would pay back the investment in one summer, not to mention the customer service improvement. The ad ca…

Do they even make a profit on ice creams? I doubt it.

Re: We can now fix McDonald's ice cream machines

#190

Post by unit149 » Sat, Oct 26, 2024, 7:06 AM UTC

As per the US Code, title § 1201(D) "noninfringing uses" including but not limited to non-profit or archival purposes aren't a circumvention of the technological measure. No need to skirt DMCA if the fair use doctrine is in place.