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Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

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Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#161
post #152
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think the Israeli response to Oct 7 should have been?

I think they could start with not destroying hospitals and schools and doing better than “at least 1/3 of the 40k people killed were militants.” Israel , the most moral army in the world /s, thinks that two citizens killed for every militant killed is an acceptable ratio, it’s not. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-m...

What's the acceptable ratio? I'm not claiming this reality isn't horrific I'm just not seeing many examples of wars fought better. Did the U.S do it better in Vietnam or Iraq? The U.S wasn't even fighting for its survival, it was fighting to "defeat communism" or to keep oil prices low because of the invasion of Kuweit or 9-11 etc etc. None of these reasons were as strong as what happened to Israel.

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#162
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has lied repeatedly countless times, like the tunnels under hospitals that never show up, or when they say the didn't kill the journalists they did end up admitting to. Or the claims of rape and beheaded babies that were all fake. You can not take anything they say as serious.

Not disputing general truthfulness of Israeli government, but specifically as to the latter two examples you listed: A) There is no direct evidence that Israeli government publicly stated that babies were beheaded. That claim came from a single journalist, spread like wildfire on social media (as did tons of videos and footage of the attacks), and was exacerbated by a statement Biden made. B) there is very credible e…

That article you linked does not support your claims at all. The UN was pressured by Israel to send a delegation, but they would not cooperate fully and refused a full investigation.

From the UN report [1]:

>In the medicolegal assessment of available photos and videos, no tangible indications of rape could be identified.

>The mission team examined several allegations of sexual violence. It must be noted that witnesses and sources with whom the mission team engaged adopted over time an increasingly cautious and circumspect approach regarding past accounts, including in some cases retracting statements made previously. Some also stated to the mission team that they no longer felt confident in their recollections of other assertions that had appeared in the media.

>It was determined by the mission team that the crime scene had been altered by a bomb squad and the bodies moved, explaining the separation of the body of the girl from the rest of her family. Allegations of objects found inserted in female genital organs also could not be verified by the mission team due in large part to the limited availability and low quality of imagery.

How does any of this information from the report lead you to believe that the allegations of mass rape are 'very credible'?

See this interview from Pramila Patten who is the special representative that wrote this report [2]

>“May I just ask, why not put the responsibility and blame the atrocities quite simply on the perpetrators and say, ‘it was Hamas who did it?’” the host demanded.

>Patten replied that the mission of her visit to Israel was “only for the purpose of gathering and analyzing information,” not for attributing alleged crimes to any perpetrator.

>“It is pretty clear who did it, after talking to survivors who returned – it wasn’t the Belgians who did it,” chortled the host.

>“I think it’s up to your government to give access, and that was one of my first recommendations,” Patten responded.

I would suggest you stop peddling these baseless allegations as these lies are being used to justify civilian massacres to this day.

[1] https://tinyurl.com/2px6tp6v

[2] https://tinyurl.com/bddbu29s

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#163

HN posts about this used to be 99% Pro-Zionist. There’s been a marked shift in opinion (or less bots) and I’m very, very glad that people are recognising the extent of war crimes being committed by Israel.

99% pro Zionist ...can you show me even one example of such a post? I don't think you can.

Anything critical of Israel is usually flagged by users and removed from the front page.

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

99% pro Zionist ...can you show me even one example of such a post? I don't think you can.

Anything critical of Israel is usually flagged by users and removed from the front page.

[flagged]

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#165
post #26
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you compare what Russia has done in the same time frame?

Israel is has killed more innocent civilians in a year than the entire Russia Ukraine war fwiw

So you're dismissing Ukrainian soldiers, who have no choice but to defend themselves, their country, and their families from genocide?

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#166
post #107

HN posts about this used to be 99% Pro-Zionist. There’s been a marked shift in opinion (or less bots) and I’m very, very glad that people are recognising the extent of war crimes being committed by Israel.

Maybe it's because social media has relayed the truth and Israel can no longer use its grip on western media to conceal its atrocities.

Maybe.

Worth considering that in terms of relative size, Israel has a population of 10 million, Jews in the world number ~14 million.

Whereas the Arab world, which tends to be relatively anti-Israel, numbers ~220 million. And Muslims, which tend to be anti-Israel as well, number 1.2 billion.

So just in terms of number of voices, the natural pro-Israel voices [1] are vastly outnumbered by the natural anti-Israel voices.

Think about how this impacts what you hear, how this impacts the votes in the UN (which is not democratic but votes are by country), how this impacts economic reactions (number of consumers), etc.

[1] This is a sweeping generalization, but it is statistically true that Jews are usually pro-Israel and Arabs and Muslims are usually anti-Israel. With other religions/ethnicities it's more complicated.

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#167
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they could start with not destroying hospitals and schools and doing better than “at least 1/3 of the 40k people killed were militants.” Israel , the most moral army in the world /s, thinks that two citizens killed for every militant killed is an acceptable ratio, it’s not. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-m...

What's the acceptable ratio? I'm not claiming this reality isn't horrific I'm just not seeing many examples of wars fought better. Did the U.S do it better in Vietnam or Iraq? The U.S wasn't even fighting for its survival, it was fighting to "defeat communism" or to keep oil prices low because of the invasion of Kuweit or 9-11 etc etc. None of these reasons were as strong as what happened to Israel.

Vietnam and Iraq are two nation states and had populations between 25-30m at the time US waged war in those countries. Gaza is a narrow strip of 139 square miles of land with 2mn people packed together like sardines, who have no sovereignty, have been under an economic blockade since 2007, and whose rulers Hamas have no conventional military to speak of. These two are not comparable, I don't know why people keep pointing to the destruction of Nazi Germany and Japan as the benchmark of whats acceptable in Gaza, its quite insane tbh.

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#168
post #89
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“You don’t get to shoot through human shields.” I don’t have a POV w.r.t. this conflict, but I’d like to understand what you mean by this statement generally. In the extreme it seems to imply, “if you have a human shield you are invincible.” It’s a messed-up calculus to have to make but I feel like there must be some middle ground.

Take a step back and observe you've erected a mental block for yourself. We've got a false dichotomy here - either we shoot through human shields or we do nothing. If there are insurgents among civilians, they either have logistics and communication networks to conduct operations, or they're unable to operate effectively. Weapons do not materialize from nowhere, they must be smuggled into the country and distributed.…

> Take a step back and observe you've erected a mental block for yourself. We've got a false dichotomy here - either we shoot through human shields or we do nothing.

No, you're the one making imaginary false dichotomies. See your last paragraph:

> Do not accept that these people cannot solve these problems without bulldozing through human shields. Do not accept the notion that a powerful military and intelligence apparatus is helpless. They could prosecute this war differently. They have made a choice not to.

You're now making a false dichotomy - Israel can choose to prosecute the war differently, but it doesn't, implying that they are choosing to kill human shields on purpose.

The reality is that you're coming up on the spot with a dozen ways to defeat an insurgency, without taking into account that they are just as smart and just as motivated as you, and planned for years to make them impossible to hit without significant civilian casualties. This is incredibly well documented.

Sure, you can pretend there is always a secret third option - and there sometimes is. And there sometimes isn't. And the more you let militants using civilians as human shields deter you, the more the militants are incentivized to use human shields, so even in a best case scenario, you're kicking the can down the road.

None of this is to say that Israel's actions are perfect or even good - that's a separate argument. But imagining that Israel has a magic way to do what it wants to do and eliminate Hamas - which many people support it doing and agree it has a right to do - imagining there is some magic way this could get done without hurting civilians is, frankly, incorrect.

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose you're suggesting that one shouldn't value "us" over "them". Is a logical extension of this that you shouldn't shoot someone else if you wouldn't shoot yourself?

I'm suggesting we should value civilian casualties equally. You're free to shoot at soldiers.

I mean, you can also just value all human life equally, and not shoot at soldiers unless there's a really good reason to do so. You really shouldn't target civilians, almost ever, cause there's never a good reason to do so by definition.

Re: Israel launched a dozen attacks on UN troops in Lebanon, says leaked report

#170
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the acceptable ratio? I'm not claiming this reality isn't horrific I'm just not seeing many examples of wars fought better. Did the U.S do it better in Vietnam or Iraq? The U.S wasn't even fighting for its survival, it was fighting to "defeat communism" or to keep oil prices low because of the invasion of Kuweit or 9-11 etc etc. None of these reasons were as strong as what happened to Israel.

Vietnam and Iraq are two nation states and had populations between 25-30m at the time US waged war in those countries. Gaza is a narrow strip of 139 square miles of land with 2mn people packed together like sardines, who have no sovereignty, have been under an economic blockade since 2007, and whose rulers Hamas have no conventional military to speak of. These two are not comparable, I don't know why people keep poin…

Why does the land area matter? Israel is also a tiny and crowded country and is threatened from all fronts. What was the threat against the U.S again , was Vietnam about to invade? was Iraq?

Hamas had enough weapons to kill 1200 Israelis in one day so it's not some helpless entity. It was armed to its teeth. It's only after almost 800 additional dead Israeli soldiers and a very bloody war that Hamas lost most of its power.

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