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Software Engineering Body of Knowledge (SWEBOK) v4.0 is out [pdf]

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131–140 of 170 posts

Re: Software Engineering Body of Knowledge (SWEBOK) v4.0 is out [pdf]

#131
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, I am fully aware that there exists no field where a test or piece of paper guarantees excellence. But I am also aware what the lack of it does. It leads to buildings falling down or burning up [with people in them]. This was a common occurrence 100+ years ago. You know what made it less common? Standardization. Building codes. Minimum standards for engineers and the trades. Independent studies have a…

> It leads to buildings falling down or burning up [with people in them]. This was a common occurrence 100+ years ago. You know what made it less common? Standardization. Building codes. Minimum standards for engineers and the trades. To me, this is a more interesting comparison. Is it PE certification and contractor licenses that led to this or is it building codes, construction inspectors, occupancy permits? I will…

You really need both. Mandatory education, degrees, apprenticeships, licenses, etc is how you make sure they know how to do the thing. And then the building codes and inspections is how you check that they did the thing. If you ask someone to build a home "to code" but you never teach them how, they will spend years trying to figure it out, inconsistently. Send them to school, have them apprentice, and afterward they will be able to build it in a month, in a standard way.

You remind me, there is an industry that has some basic software building codes: the Defense Industry. There are some pretty thorough standards for IT components, processes, etc needed to work with the military (even in the cloud). But it is all self-attested, so it's like asking a building contractor to make sure they inspect themselves. Government keeps asking the tech industry to solve this, but nobody wants to take responsibility. As more and more stuff falls apart (in the public & private sector) the government is gonna get louder and louder about this. It's already started with privacy & competition, but big failures like Crowdstrike make it obvious that the rot goes deeper.

Re: Software Engineering Body of Knowledge (SWEBOK) v4.0 is out [pdf]

#132
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is wrong with it? That is a definition fit for someone who does not have prior knowledge of what a runtime error is. It might be boring to us, and I might word it a little different, but it's fine.

A lot of things are wrong with it. > Runtime errors surface when a program runs into an unexpected condition or situation such as dividing by zero, This implicitly asserts that dividing by zero is always unexpected, that all runtime errors are unexpected, and that dividing by zero always causes a runtime error. None of these are true. Dividing by zero is very frequently not unexpected (it's utterly commonplace in 3-D…

Crikey. Nitpicking a single sentence (in a document of hundreds of pages) to the degree you just did is not nearly useful as you seem to think.

Sometimes a sentence is a little too general, or too specific. It happens often and we all know that. Indeed, in this short post I've probably already committed that sin. 100% guaranteed you made several errors (especially of degree) in the post above.

Re: Software Engineering Body of Knowledge (SWEBOK) v4.0 is out [pdf]

#133
post #130
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your second sentence, but your first sentence is pretty profoundly incorrect. Each of its 413 pages is divided into two columns. I generated a random sample of 10 page numbers associated with column numbers as follows: >>> import random >>> r = random.SystemRandom() >>> [(r.randrange(1, 414), r.randrange(1, 3)) for i in range(10)] [(299, 1), (164, 2), (292, 1), (246, 2), (205, 2), (113, 1), (167, 2), (39…

Your analysis doesn't support your claim. Just to point out one basic flaw, real engineering always has to account for financial realities including cash flow as a constraint or optimization parameter. I don't think you even understand what software engineering is. If we want to limit the discussion to just software development as a craft and take out the engineering aspects then you might have a point, but that's no…

While I agree that "real engineering always has to account for financial realities including cash flow as a constraint or optimization parameter" and that, as I said, "Competent engineers (...) have to understand at least the basics of the management context in which they operate," that's no substitute for attempting to replace real engineering with project management in the curriculum, which is what the SWEBOK is attempting to do—as my analysis conclusively shows!

Contrast, for example, MIT's required courses for a degree in mechanical engineering (https://catalog.mit.edu/degree-charts/mechanical-engineering...): 13 required core subjects of which zero are project-management stuff; one course chosen from a menu of four of which one is "The Product Engineering Process" and another "Engineering Systems Design"; and two electives chosen from a menu of 22, of which three are project-management stuff. The core subjects are Mechanics and Materials (I and II), Dynamics and Control (I and II), Thermal-Fluids Engineering (I and II), Design and Manufacturing (I and II), Numerical Computation for Mechanical Engineers, Mechanical Engineering Tools, Measurement and Instrumentation, Differential Equations, and your undergraduate thesis.

Berkeley's equivalent is https://me.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/ME-Flowch..., with math courses, chemistry courses, physics courses, and engineering courses such as ENGIN 7 (Introduction to Computer Programming for Scientists and Engineers), ENGIN 26 (Three-Dimensional Modeling for Design), ENGIN 29 (Manufacturing and Design Communication, which might sound like a project management course but is actually about things like manufacturing process tolerances and dimensioning), MEC ENG 40 (Thermodynamics), and MEC ENG 132 (Dynamic Systems and Feedback). Again, as far as I can tell, there's virtually no project-management material in here. Project management stuff doesn't constitute one tenth of the curriculum, much less two thirds of it.

The software equivalent of Thermal-Fluids Engineering II, Differential Equations, or Thermodynamics is not, I'm sorry, proposals and cash flow, nor is it multiple-attribute decision making, nor is it corporate operational risk management.

The same holds true of chemical engineering (https://catalog.mit.edu/degree-charts/chemical-engineering-c...) or electrical engineering (https://catalog.mit.edu/degree-charts/electrical-engineering...) or basically any other engineering field except "systems engineering". In all of these courses you spend basically all of your time studying the thing your engineering is nominally focused on and the science you use, such as chemical reactions, thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, separation processes, algorithms, electric circuits, and the theory of dynamical systems, and very little time on HR, accounting, and project management.

That's because HR, accounting, and project management aren't real engineering, much as the SWEBOK tries to pretend they are.

Real engineering is a craft based on science, navigating tradeoffs to solve problems despite great intellectual difficulty, and that's just as true of software—even yet another CRUD web app—as of gears, hydraulic cylinders, electric circuits, or chemical plants.

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41918787 for my thoughts on what a real-engineering curriculum about software would include.

Re: Software Engineering Body of Knowledge (SWEBOK) v4.0 is out [pdf]

#134
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of things are wrong with it. > Runtime errors surface when a program runs into an unexpected condition or situation such as dividing by zero, This implicitly asserts that dividing by zero is always unexpected, that all runtime errors are unexpected, and that dividing by zero always causes a runtime error. None of these are true. Dividing by zero is very frequently not unexpected (it's utterly commonplace in 3-D…

Crikey. Nitpicking a single sentence (in a document of hundreds of pages) to the degree you just did is not nearly useful as you seem to think. Sometimes a sentence is a little too general, or too specific. It happens often and we all know that. Indeed, in this short post I've probably already committed that sin. 100% guaranteed you made several errors (especially of degree) in the post above.

There's an enormous difference between "sometimes a sentence is a little too general, or too specific" and making 12 serious factual errors in 86 words. My comment is 1944 words, at least according to Emacs; if it had the same error density, it would have not just several errors (though I note you were unable to find any!) but 271 serious ones.

You did make one error in your comment, though; when you said "Nitpicking a single sentence", you implied that my comment only dissected the errors in a single sentence, rather than an entire paragraph.

When text is carefully drafted by competent people, it is impossible to "nitpick" it to the degree I just did. It is very rare to find something either as error-filled or as badly written as this paragraph. The fact that the document is hundreds of pages long makes the situation far worse, not better; all of those hundreds of pages seem to be of the same appalling quality.

Re: Software Engineering Body of Knowledge (SWEBOK) v4.0 is out [pdf]

#135
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crikey. Nitpicking a single sentence (in a document of hundreds of pages) to the degree you just did is not nearly useful as you seem to think. Sometimes a sentence is a little too general, or too specific. It happens often and we all know that. Indeed, in this short post I've probably already committed that sin. 100% guaranteed you made several errors (especially of degree) in the post above.

There's an enormous difference between "sometimes a sentence is a little too general, or too specific" and making 12 serious factual errors in 86 words. My comment is 1944 words, at least according to Emacs; if it had the same error density, it would have not just several errors (though I note you were unable to find any!) but 271 serious ones. You did make one error in your comment, though; when you said "Nitpicking…

Only skimmed your comment. Because swebok and your scathing critique are not important enough. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

Re: Software Engineering Body of Knowledge (SWEBOK) v4.0 is out [pdf]

#136
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an enormous difference between "sometimes a sentence is a little too general, or too specific" and making 12 serious factual errors in 86 words. My comment is 1944 words, at least according to Emacs; if it had the same error density, it would have not just several errors (though I note you were unable to find any!) but 271 serious ones. You did make one error in your comment, though; when you said "Nitpicking…

Only skimmed your comment. Because swebok and your scathing critique are not important enough. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

What, you think I wrote the SWEBOK? Or maybe you just don't understand the Shakespeare you're quoting any more than you understood what I was saying in the first place.

Re: Software Engineering Body of Knowledge (SWEBOK) v4.0 is out [pdf]

#137
A lot of scathing critiques in here, but they remind me of the parable of the blind folks and the elephant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

    The parable of the blind men and an elephant is a story of a group of blind
    men who have never come across an elephant before and who learn and imagine
    what the elephant is like by touching it. Each blind man feels a different
    part of the animal's body, but only one part, such as the side or the tusk.
    They then describe the animal based on their limited experience and their
    descriptions of the elephant are different from each other. In some
    versions, they come to suspect that the other person is dishonest and they
    come to blows. The moral of the parable is that humans have a tendency to
    claim absolute truth based on their limited, subjective experience as they
    ignore other people's limited, subjective experiences which may be equally
    true.[1][2] The parable originated in the ancient Indian subcontinent, from
    where it has been widely diffused.

So section 2 does not jibe with enterprise development, section 3 does not agree with embedded development, and section 8 does not fit well with web startups? These three industries have different requirements, not just from each other but from controllers for skyscrapers and space probes too.

This document is trying to find common ground, and so will offend folks in camp X, Y, or Z that their case is not handled well enough. Please be mindful that other sets of requirements exist.

Re: Software Engineering Body of Knowledge (SWEBOK) v4.0 is out [pdf]

#138
post #3

It's so unfortunate that this effort is still alive. The ACM canceled its involvement for excellent reasons which are worth reading: https://web.archive.org/web/20000815071233/http://www.acm.or... It's probably also worth reading Dijkstra's assessment of the "software engineering" field (roughly coextensive with what the SWEBOK attempts to cover) from EWD1036, 36 years ago. > Software engineering, of course, presents…

Any suggestion for a handbook or compendium that you consider to be a worthy alternative?

Although any random bathroom-wall graffiti is better than the SWEBOK, I don't know what to recommend that's actually good. Part of the problem is that people still suck at programming.

“How to report bugs effectively” https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html> is probably the highest-bang-for-buck reading on software engineering.

Not having read it, I hear The Pragmatic Programmer is pretty good. Code Complete was pretty great at the time. The Practice of Programming covers most of the same material but is much more compact and higher in quality; The C Programming Language, by one of the same authors, also teaches significant things. The Architecture of Open-Source Applications series isn't a handbook, but offers some pretty good ideas: https://aosabook.org/en/

Here are some key topics such a handbook or compendium ought to cover:

- How to think logically. This is crucial not only for debugging but also for formulating problems in such a way that you can program them into a computer. Programming problems that are small enough to fit into a programming interview can usually be solved, though badly, simply by rephrasing them in predicate logic (with some math, but usually not much) and mechanically transforming it into structured control flow. Real-world programming problems usually can't, but do have numerous such subproblems. I don't know how to teach this, but that's just my own incompetence at teaching.

- Debugging. You'll spend a lot of your time debugging, and there's more to debugging than just thinking logically. You also need to formulate good hypotheses (out of the whole set of logically possible ones) and run controlled experiments to validate them. There's a whole panoply of techniques available here, including testing, logging, input record and replay, delta debugging, stack trace analysis, breakpoint debuggers, metrics anomaly detection, and membrane interposition with things like strace.

- Testing. Though I mentioned this as a debugging technique, testing has a lot more applications than just debugging. Automated tests are crucial for finding and diagnosing bugs, and can also be used for design, performance profiling, and interface documentation. Manual tests are also crucial for finding and diagnosing bugs, and can also tell you about usability and reliability. There are a lot of techniques to learn here too, including unit testing, fuzzing, property-based testing, various kinds of test doubles (including mock objects), etc.

- Version tracking. Git is a huge improvement over CVS, but CVS is a huge improvement over Jupyter notebooks. Version control facilitates delta debugging, of course, but also protects against accidental typo insertion, overwriting new code with old code, losing your source code without backups, not being able to tell what your coworkers did, etc. And GitLab, Gitea, GitHub, etc., are useful in lots of ways.

- Reproducibility more generally. Debugging irreproducible problems is much more difficult, and source-code version tracking is only the start. It's very helpful to be able to reproduce your deployment environment(s), whether with Docker or with something else. When you can reproduce computational results, you can cache them safely, which is important for optimization.

- Stack Overflow. It's pretty common that you can find solutions to your problems easily on Stack Overflow and similar fora; twin pitfalls are blindly copying and pasting code from it without understanding it, and failing to take advantage of it even when it would greatly accelerate your progress.

- ChatGPT. We're still figuring out how to use large language models. Some promising approaches seem to be asking ChatGPT what some code does, how to use an unfamiliar API to accomplish some task that requires several calls, or how to implement an unfamiliar algorithm; and using ChatGPT as a simulated user for user testing. This has twin pitfalls similar to Stack Overflow. Asking it to write production-quality code for you tends to waste more time debugging its many carefully concealed bugs than it would take you to just write the code, but sometimes it may come up with a fresh approach you wouldn't have thought of.

- Using documentation in general. It's common for novice programmers to use poor-quality sites like w3schools instead of authoritative sites like python.org or MDN, and to be unfamiliar with the text of the standards they're nominally programming to. It's as if they think that any website that ranks well on Google is trustworthy! I've often found it very helpful to be able to look up the official definitions of things, and often official documentation has better ways to do things than outdated third-party answers. Writing documentation is actually a key part of this skill.

- Databases. There are a lot of times when storing your data in a transactional SQL database will save you an enormous amount of development effort, for several reasons: normalization makes invalid states unrepresentable; SQL, though verbose, can commonly express things in a fairly readable line or two that would take a page or more of nested loops, and many ORMs are about as good as SQL for many queries; transactions greatly simplify concurrency; and often it's easier to horizontally scale a SQL database than simpler alternatives. Not every application benefits from SQL, but applications that suffer from not using it are commonplace. Lacking data normalization, they suffer many easily avoidable bugs, and using procedural code where they could use SQL, they suffer not only more bugs but also difficulty in understanding and modification.

- Algorithms and data structures. SQL doesn't solve all your data storage and querying problems. As Zachary Vance said, "Usually you should do everything the simplest possible way, and if that fails, by brute force." But sometimes that doesn't work either. Writing a ray tracer, a Sudoku solver, a maze generator, or an NPC pathfinding algorithm doesn't get especially easier when you add SQL to the equation, and brute force will get you only so far. The study of algorithms can convert impossible programming problems into easy programming problems, and I think it may also be helpful for learning to think logically. The pitfall here is that it's easy to confuse the study of existing data structures and algorithms with software engineering as a whole.

- Design. It's always easy to add functionality to a small program, but hard to add functionality to a large program. But the order of growth of this difficulty depends on something we call "design". Well-designed large software can't be as easy to add functionality to as small software, but it can be much, much easier than poorly-designed large software. This, more than manpower or anything else, is what ultimately limits the functionality of software. It has more to do with how the pieces of the software are connected together than with how each one of them is written. Ultimately it has a profound impact on how each one of them is written. This is kind of a self-similar or fractal concern, applying at every level of composition that's bigger than a statement, and it's easy to have good high-level design and bad low-level design or vice versa. The best design is simple, but simplicity is not sufficient. Hierarchical decomposition is a central feature of good designs, but a hierarchical design is not necessarily a good design.

- Optimization. Sometimes the simplest possible way is too slow, and faster software is always better. So sometimes it's worthwhile to spend effort making software faster, though never actually optimal. Picking a better algorithm is generally the highest-impact thing you can do here when you can, but once you've done that, there are still a lot of other things you can do to make your software faster, at many different levels of composition.

- Code reviews. Two people can build software much more than twice as fast as one person. One of the reasons is that many bugs that are subtle to their author and hard to find by testing are obvious to someone else. Another is that often they can improve each other's designs.

- Regular expressions. Leaving aside the merits of understanding the automata-theory background, like SQL, regular expressions are in the category of things that can reduce a complicated page of code to a simple line of code, even if the most common syntax isn't very readable.

- Compilers, interpreters, and domain-specific languages. Regular expressions are a domain-specific language, and it's very common to have a problem domain that could be similarly simplified if you had a good domain-specific language for it, but you don't. Writing a compiler or interpreter for such a domain-specific language is one of the most powerful techniques for improving your system's design. Often you can use a so-called "embedded domain-specific language" that's really just a library for whatever language you're already using; this has advantages and disadvantages.

- Free-software licensing. If it works, using code somebody else wrote is very, very often faster than writing the code yourself. Unfortunately we have to concern ourselves with copyright law here; free-software licensing is what makes it legal to use other people's code most of the time, but you need to understand what the common licenses permit and how they can and cannot be combined.

- Specific software recommendations. There are certain pieces of software that are so commonly useful that you should just know about them, though this information has a shorter shelf life and is somewhat more domain-specific than the stuff above. But the handbook should list the currently popular libraries and analogous tools applicable to building software.

Re: Software Engineering Body of Knowledge (SWEBOK) v4.0 is out [pdf]

#139
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any suggestion for a handbook or compendium that you consider to be a worthy alternative?

Although any random bathroom-wall graffiti is better than the SWEBOK, I don't know what to recommend that's actually good . Part of the problem is that people still suck at programming. “How to report bugs effectively” https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html > is probably the highest-bang-for-buck reading on software engineering. Not having read it, I hear The Pragmatic Programmer is pretty good. Code…

There are some people (such as the SWEBOK team) who would claim that software engineering shouldn't concern itself much with considerations like my list above. Quoting its chapter 16:

> Software engineers must understand and internalize the differences between their role and that of a computer programmer. A typical programmer converts a given algorithm into a set of computer instructions, compiles the code, creates links with relevant libraries, binds†, loads the program into the desired system, executes the program, and generates output.

> On the other hand, a software engineer studies the requirements, architects and designs major system blocks, and identifies optimal algorithms, communication mechanisms, performance criteria, test and acceptance plans, maintenance methodologies, engineering processes and methods appropriate to the applications and so on.

The division of labor proposed here has in fact been tried; it was commonplace 50 or 60 years ago.‡ It turns out that to do a good job at the second of these roles, you need to be good at the stuff I described above; you can't delegate it to a "typical programmer" who just implements the algorithms she's given. To do either of these roles well, you need to be doing the other one too. So the companies that used that division of labor have been driven out of most markets.

More generally, I question the SWEBOK's attempt to make software engineering so different from other engineering professions, by focusing on project-management knowledge to the virtual exclusion of software knowledge; the comparison is in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41918011.

______

† "Binds" is an obsolete synonym for "links with relevant libraries", but the authors of the SWEBOK were too incompetent to know this. Some nincompoop on the committee apparently also replaced the correct "links with relevant libraries" with the typographical error "creates links with relevant libraries".

‡ As a minor point, in the form described, it implies that there are no end users, only programmers, which was true at the time.

Re: Software Engineering Body of Knowledge (SWEBOK) v4.0 is out [pdf]

#140
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know that you could be speaking about mining operations or building highways in your post rather than software and everything would apply the same? I really don't see the argument against the book here in your comment.

There are three absolutely key differences here. The first is that, if you get a four-year college degree in mining or civil engineering, you will not spend much of those four years studying management practices; you will spend it studying geology, the mechanical properties of rocks and soil, hydrology (how water flows underground), and existing designs that are known to work well. You probably will not build a mine…

And as a side note, this is why LLMs are such a huge sugar rush for large companies. The performance of LLMs is directly correlated to capital investment (in building the model and having millions of GPUs to process requests).

Software rarely has a system that someone cannot under cut in their bedroom. LLMs is one such (where as computer vision was all about clever edge finding algorithms, LLMs are brute force (for the moment))

Imagine being able to turn to your investors and say “the laws of physics mean I can take your money and some open source need cannot absolutely cannot ruin us all next month”

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