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Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

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Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#891

Post by jimhefferon »

FloorEgg wrote: post #814
skhunted wrote: post #491

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

I have friends that started a startup trying to tackle this problem. They actually found ways for certain types of exams in certain subjects to make cheating exponentially harder and also provide less of an advantage, so much so that if the student is cheating they are effectively learning. Some of their stuff works really well, and they have prof customers who love it. The CEO went on a tour to visit their biggest c…

Can you say more about the startups stuff?

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#892

Post by Aeolun »

pj_mukh wrote: post #669
lumost wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal take, we’ve made the cost of failure to high and cheating too easy. As a student, the only thing the next institution will see is GPA, school, major. Roughly in that order. If the cost of not getting an A is exclusion from future opportunities- then students will reject exclusion by taking easier classes or cheating. As someone who studied physics and came out with a 2.7 GPA due to studying what I wanted…

Serious question from someone who is regularly tasked with hiring Juniors. What IS a good assessment for entry-level/right out of college positions? -> GPA can be gamed, as laid out. -> Take Home assessments can mostly be gamed, I want to assess how you think, now which tools you use. -> Personality tests favor the outgoing/extroverts -> On-location tests/leet code are a crapshoot. What should be best practice here?…

I think I judge these mostly by how much they know that falls outside the expected curriculum. It doesn’t even have to be related to the job, but the indication that they’ll learn without external motivation is a very large signal in their favor.

There’s also the ‘having an opinion on things’ factor. Someone that thinks things should be done a certain way, and can motivate that, will always be higher on my ranking, regardless of what that opinion is.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#893

Post by jimhefferon »

simsla wrote: post #556
skhunted wrote: post #491

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

As a student of the previous generation, I much preferred exams with an oral defence component. Gave an opportunity to clear up any miscommunications, and I always walked away with a much better estimate for how well I did.

Hard to see, though, how to do that with hundreds of students in a room, and be reasonably uniform and fair about it.

An argument perhaps that there should not be hundreds in a room.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#894

Post by [deleted] »

skhunted wrote: post #491

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

[deleted]

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#895

Post by michaelt »

light_hue_1 wrote: post #837
michaelt wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said one conversation per student per class, and ten classes per year. Not 10 conversations per class per student. > The costs would be astronomical. Those 200 students have paid the college $549,600 for your class. The costs are already astronomical. Is it so unreasonable for some of that money to be spent on providing education?

I can't express how out of touch with reality this reply is. The students paid me nothing. The university provides some TAs, that's it. But even if they gave me all of that money in cash to spend, this would be totally impossible. I'm supposed to grade a student based on 1 conversation? Do you know how grading and teaching work? Can you imagine the complains that would come out of this process? How unfair it is to sa…

> I can't express how out of touch with reality this reply is.

> The students paid me nothing.

Well gee, there I was thinking they were paying $27,480 per year for "tuition"

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#896

Post by ThrowAaaaway »

selimthegrim wrote: post #853
light_hue_1 wrote: post #837

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't express how out of touch with reality this reply is. The students paid me nothing. The university provides some TAs, that's it. But even if they gave me all of that money in cash to spend, this would be totally impossible. I'm supposed to grade a student based on 1 conversation? Do you know how grading and teaching work? Can you imagine the complains that would come out of this process? How unfair it is to sa…

OK, so how is it that USSR made this work?

Soviet professors were poor, so it was easy to bribe them to get passing grade. To weed out bribers, some trickery was used by state, so bribers can pay for few years or cheat on tests and then fail an exam anyway. In my class, 36 enrolled, 11 graduated.

Later, people learned that and started to buy diploma: faster, cheaper, no risk of failing the final exam.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#897

Post by marci »

School-Cotton wrote: post #457
marci wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

How do you suggest we reduce the prevalence of guns / improve gun control in the US? Keep in mind that the US is not a functioning democracy and its political system is structured to allow any side to block any substantial reform.

Are you answering your own question? I read your reply as :

"How do we stop Z? X and Y are the cause of Z.

The thing is, I said gun control, but I'm not even sure that's real issue. I kinda took it backward. There are mass shootings because of the ease of access to guns, but it's not the ease of access to guns that pushes people to this.

In other ords, remove the guns, the mechanisms that drive people to think they want to kill remains. I might be wrong but it feels like in Europe there are more and more cold weapons attacks, or the use of ramming trucks.

I guess I have no suggestions.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#898

Post by icehawk »

newZWhoDis wrote: post #53
jmugan wrote: post #18

My daughter was accused of turning in an essay written by AI because the school software at her online school said so. Her mom watched her write the essay. I thought it was common knowledge that it was impossible to tell whether text was generated by AI. Evidently, the software vendors are either ignorant or are lying, and school administrators are believing them.

The education system in the US is broadly staffed by the dumbest people from every walk of life. If they could make it elsewhere, they would. I don’t expect this to be a popular take here, and most replies will be NAXALT fallacies, but in aggregate it’s the truth. Sorry, your retired CEO physics teacher who you loved was not a representative sample.

So how many hours have you spent as a teacher?

Because if you're putting forth the assertion "If they could make it elsewhere, they would." you've certainly had spent sometime teaching, yes?

I think it would be good to understand how much experience teaching it took for you to come to that conclusion.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#899

Post by nathants »

chatmasta wrote: post #879
jmugan wrote: post #18

My daughter was accused of turning in an essay written by AI because the school software at her online school said so. Her mom watched her write the essay. I thought it was common knowledge that it was impossible to tell whether text was generated by AI. Evidently, the software vendors are either ignorant or are lying, and school administrators are believing them.

> Her mom watched her write the essay. I suspect there is a product opportunity here. It could be as simple as a chrome extension that records your sessions in google docs and generates a timelapse of your writing process. That’s the kind of thing that’s hard to fake and could convince an accuser that you really did write the essay. At the very least it could be useful insurance in case you’re accused.

obs screen recording with laptop facecam.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#900

Post by underbiding »

skhunted wrote: post #491

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

Personal take: Education / pedagogy needs to pull itself up finally and actually learn to modernize and change the fact that its absolute core model hasn't changed for hundreds of years.

Rote memorization and examinations as being the basis of modern education is the problem here, and frankly I'm glad that many academics are struggling because it should show how terrible most educational programs truly are at actually teaching students and developing knowledge.

Sorry, I'm tired to hear about the crocodile tears from instructors who refuse to adapt how they teach to the needs of students and instead lashing out and taking the easy road out by blaming students for being lazy or cheaters or whatever.

When you can read about a classroom in the 1800s and in 2024 and you realize the model is exactly the same, then this should tell you that your entire model is broken. All of it. The rote lectures, the memorization, the prompting students to demonstrate knowledge through grading. All of it is useless and has been a cargo cult for a long time because (and this is especially bad in higher education) there's no interest or effort in changing the way business is done.

Yeah sorry, no sympathy from me here.

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