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Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations
861–870 of 1001 posts
Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations
#862Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's hard, and interviewing is better suited to answering "nope, not you!" questions than "yes, you'll be a good fit." Onsite interviews with a range of approaches seem to be the best I've found over the years. As much as it pains me, things like fizzbuzz are still useful, because people still lie about their ability to program in languages. If you claim to know C very well and can't knock that out in 5 minutes, and…
> If you claim to know C very well and can't knock that out in 5 minutes, and it takes you 45 minutes of prompting, well, you don't know C usefully. I recently had an interview and a "skill test" in C. It was proctored by the interviewer in-person. I had so many questions about the questions. It was like, what is the output of "some code" and while obvious, there were some questions where specific CPU architecture ma…
You probably did dodge a bullet. The correct answer to every engineering question is "it depends". :)
Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations
#863Earlier quoted context omitted.
I studied for a popular degree at one of the largest universities in Germany. I never had a course be taught by multiple professors. If a course had many attendants, the room just got bigger. But that's just my personal experience. I don't know if it's different at other large universities.
In smaller countries like Germany increasing the class size makes sense but countries like the US, it just doesn't scale. Just to give a better sense, my quick google-fu (so take it with a grain of salt) shows Germany having 2.8M people actively enrolled in college vs the US with 18.1M. So roughly 6x the amount of students.
6x the amount of students, but also 6x the amount of universities, so each individual university has about the same count. At least that's what I assume; unless the USA have fewer universities for some reason?
Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations
#864I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…
> Students are not used to doing the necessary work to learn. They are used to doing the necessary work to pass.
Can you blame students for optimizing for grades rather than "learning"? My first two years of undergrad, the smallest professor-led lecture course I took had at least 200 students (the largest was an econ 101 course that literally had 700 kids in it). We had smaller discussion sections as well, but those were led by TAs who were often only a couple years older than me. It was abundantly clear that my professors couldn't care less about me, let alone whether I "learned" anything from them. The classes were merely a box they were obligated to check. Is it so hard to understand why students would act accordingly?
Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations
#865Earlier quoted context omitted.
Serious question from someone who is regularly tasked with hiring Juniors. What IS a good assessment for entry-level/right out of college positions? -> GPA can be gamed, as laid out. -> Take Home assessments can mostly be gamed, I want to assess how you think, now which tools you use. -> Personality tests favor the outgoing/extroverts -> On-location tests/leet code are a crapshoot. What should be best practice here?…
You have to use on-location tests. Do your best to be fair and get a true evaluation of the candidate's skills. It's not perfect but the alternatives are worse. The other thing you have to do is that you have to be willing to fire the people who are underperforming. It's just a natural consequence of the interview process being imperfect.
Yeah, even just making people engage with source code from your system and answer questions about it or find bugs is better than asking them about their own portfolio.
Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations
#866Earlier quoted context omitted.
I studied for a popular degree at one of the largest universities in Germany. I never had a course be taught by multiple professors. If a course had many attendants, the room just got bigger. But that's just my personal experience. I don't know if it's different at other large universities.
In smaller countries like Germany increasing the class size makes sense but countries like the US, it just doesn't scale. Just to give a better sense, my quick google-fu (so take it with a grain of salt) shows Germany having 2.8M people actively enrolled in college vs the US with 18.1M. So roughly 6x the amount of students.
>smaller countries like Germany
wat
Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations
#867I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…
The school I went do did a lot of oral examinations where each student would walk to the front of the class then answer questions, do math problems, recite poetry, etc.
Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations
#868Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fellow UK person - the style of exam that you describe is pretty hard to cheat unless you can find another person to go in your place. I think various institutions have tried digital invigilation but have had little success (and I think this is just a bad idea anyway). However, you also mentioned a final project. You’d be shocked how much commissioning exists where people have their projects produced for them. I’m no…
My final year project was a 120 page report of measurements of electron spin resonance together with the design of the experimental apparatus. I had to defend the design, conclusions (which I have long forgotten, it was in 1977), and justify the methods and calculation all orally to two academics. I doubt that anyone could have produced a plausible report without actually doing the work. And to defend it one would ha…
I think that in your case you've correctly observed that it would be nearly impossible to commission or otherwise fake your particular dissertation/project because of its experimental nature, and that you were called to a viva.
There are certainly similar projects being completed by students every year, and doubtless those students are not cheaters, but for each dissertation like yours, there are probably 10 or more projects that are not collaborative and have no artefacts or supporting evidence other than a written report. Such projects are fairly easy to commission. For a reasonable price (potentially thousands of dollars) you can pay a poor research student in the same field as you to churn out a mid-tier dissertation. This can be detected with a viva, but the academics need to be very confident before accusing someone of cheating. More often than not, you can get away with it and just get a not great grade.
I think that in general the natural/formal sciences don't suffer nearly as much as social science and humanities do, simply because exams and labs tend to highlight irregularities, and cheaters are less likely to be drawn into "hard" fields. However, it still exists in every field.
Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations
#869Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with you, but I would go further and turn the tables. An AI should simply not be allowed to evaluate people, in any context whatsoever. For the simple reason that it has been proven not to work (and will also never). Anyone interested to learn more about it, I recommend the recent book "AI Snake Oil" from Arvind Narayanan and Sayash Kapoor [1]. It is a critical but nuanced book and helps to see the whole AI h…
I'm definitely no AI hypster, but saying anything will "never" work over an infinite timeline is a big statement... do you have grounds why some sort of AI system could one day "never" work at evaluating some metric about someone? Seems we have reliable systems already doing that in some areas (facial recognition at airport boarding, for example)
There's the dichotomy of an irresistible force meeting an immovable object - only one of these is possible.
Either there can be an undefeatable AI detector, or an undetectable AI writer, both can't exist in the same universe. And my assumption is that with sufficient advances there could be a fully human-equivalent AI that is not distinguishable from a human in any way, so in that sense being able to detect it will actually never work.
Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations
#870I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…
> They are used to doing the necessary work to pass The same for job interviews. I did a lot of technical interviews in the past as interviewer (hundreds) for Software Engineer positions (and still help companies to hire sometimes, as independent interviewer). There is insane amount of cheating. I'd say at least 30% in normal companies are cheaters, and 50% and more in FAANG. I can prove it, in private groups, and fo…
What sort of things do you see?
I interview a lot of people and I rarely see anything I'd describe as cheating. Maybe my company is not famous enough to be worth cheating at.