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Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

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Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#561

Post by eropple »

nostrademons wrote: post #541
skhunted wrote: post #491

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

The solution, clearly, is a world where those who actually learned the math can use it to cheat the people who didn't. ...which is what we have today, where the most lucrative industries for people with good math skills are finance (= cheating dumb people out of their retirement), advertising (= cheating dumb people out of their consumer dollars), and data-driven propaganda (= cheating dumb people out of their votes)…

> advertising (= cheating dumb people out of their consumer dollars)

Advertising absolutely works on you regardless of how smart or educated you are.

How it has to work to do that can change, but the idea that advertising only impacts dumb people is pernicious as shit.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#562

Post by ericjmorey »

pdonis wrote: post #540
SkyBelow wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If we did truly devise a system that prevents cheating we’ll see that a very high percentage of current college students are not ready to be truly college educated. Isn't it to either do that now, or to lose the signaling value of college degrees as indicating knowledge.

> the signaling value of college degrees as indicating knowledge I'm not sure knowledge is what a college degree signals to prospective employers. The alternative hypothesis, which AFAIK has a fair bit of support, is that it signals a willingness to do whatever it takes to fulfill a set of on paper requirements imposed by an institution, by hook or by crook.

I think you have a clearer understanding of the signalling that colleges have been providing for centuries than others who have been sold the lies that have been perpetuated by school administrators and those trying to justify their social advantages to those that didn't have similar advantages.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#563

Post by hedora »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #544
bonoboTP wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. In Germany, all exams are like this. Homework assignments are either just a prerequisite for taking exam but the grade is solely from the exam, or you may get some small point bonus for assignments/projects. > But any teacher doing this will end up with no students signing up for…

> The main courses are mandatory in order to obtain the degree. You can't "not sign up" for linear algebra if it's in your curriculum. The course might be mandatory but which professor you choose isn't. What if multiple professors teach it? Word gets around and everyone chooses the easy profs.

After I graduated, I noticed that the people that chose the easy profs ended up with crappy jobs.

There were exceptions to this rule (in both directions), of course.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#564

Post by rightbyte »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #544
bonoboTP wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. In Germany, all exams are like this. Homework assignments are either just a prerequisite for taking exam but the grade is solely from the exam, or you may get some small point bonus for assignments/projects. > But any teacher doing this will end up with no students signing up for…

> The main courses are mandatory in order to obtain the degree. You can't "not sign up" for linear algebra if it's in your curriculum. The course might be mandatory but which professor you choose isn't. What if multiple professors teach it? Word gets around and everyone chooses the easy profs.

The same course can have the same exams for different professors. If faculty wants to solve this it is solvable.

I guess there is some sort of incentives that rewards institutions taking the easy way out.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#565

Post by bonoboTP »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #544
bonoboTP wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. In Germany, all exams are like this. Homework assignments are either just a prerequisite for taking exam but the grade is solely from the exam, or you may get some small point bonus for assignments/projects. > But any teacher doing this will end up with no students signing up for…

> The main courses are mandatory in order to obtain the degree. You can't "not sign up" for linear algebra if it's in your curriculum. The course might be mandatory but which professor you choose isn't. What if multiple professors teach it? Word gets around and everyone chooses the easy profs.

In Germany, there's no such choice. There are no competing alternative courses that can substitute for each other, the very thought seems rather strange.

There is one Linear Algebra course. You have to pass it to get your degree. Typically, it's taught by the same prof for many years, but it might also rotate between different chairs and profs (but only one in each semester and the "design" and requirements of the course stays largely the same).

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#566

Post by ericjmorey »

nostrademons wrote: post #541
skhunted wrote: post #491

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

The solution, clearly, is a world where those who actually learned the math can use it to cheat the people who didn't. ...which is what we have today, where the most lucrative industries for people with good math skills are finance (= cheating dumb people out of their retirement), advertising (= cheating dumb people out of their consumer dollars), and data-driven propaganda (= cheating dumb people out of their votes)…

Math has little to nothing to do with how people are cheated in those fields.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#567

Post by Akranazon »

bonoboTP wrote: post #527
skhunted wrote: post #491

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

> The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. In Germany, all exams are like this. Homework assignments are either just a prerequisite for taking exam but the grade is solely from the exam, or you may get some small point bonus for assignments/projects. > But any teacher doing this will end up with no students signing up for…

Germany isn't special, (almost) all exams work like that in the US as well. I don't know why he was implying otherwise. Almost all degrees have required courses in the US as well.

You point to a true failure in incentives. And yet, the US has the highest density of renowned universities.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#568

Post by Jcampuzano2 »

bonoboTP wrote: post #527
skhunted wrote: post #491

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

> The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. In Germany, all exams are like this. Homework assignments are either just a prerequisite for taking exam but the grade is solely from the exam, or you may get some small point bonus for assignments/projects. > But any teacher doing this will end up with no students signing up for…

Its actually similar in the US at many schools. At least for bachelors degrees If you don't obtain a degree within ~5.5 years (this was the standard in University of California schools, where I went at the time, not sure if its changed) you're kicked out and told you need to go somewhere else to finish. This is mostly to make room for other students.

And at least when I was in college it was the same with respect to classes, you can't take the same class more than 3 times. Additionally if a course is required you either take it or make the case for an equivalent class.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#570

Post by noodlesUK »

ninalanyon wrote: post #365
gklitz wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Written assay evaluation is not and has never been an effective evaluation. It was always a cost saving measure because allocating 30min face to face time with each individual student for each class is such a gigantic cost for the institution that they cannot even imagine doing it. Think about that the next time you look at your student debt, it couldn’t even buy you 30min time per class individually with the teacher…

When I studied physics at Exeter University they still used the tutorial system and finals. Tutorials were held fortnightly; the tutorial groups were typically three or four students. There was no obligation to turn up to lectures or even tutorials. You just had to pass the end of year exams to be allowed to continue to the final. The class of degree that was awarded depended on the open note final exam and the repor…

Fellow UK person - the style of exam that you describe is pretty hard to cheat unless you can find another person to go in your place. I think various institutions have tried digital invigilation but have had little success (and I think this is just a bad idea anyway).

However, you also mentioned a final project. You’d be shocked how much commissioning exists where people have their projects produced for them. I’m not talking an overly helpful study group, I mean straight up essay mills. Tools like ChatGPT make the bar for commissioning lower and cheaper. I don’t know how you can combat this and still have long-term projects like dissertations.

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