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Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

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Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#351

Post by junaru »

lm28469 wrote: post #339
lwhi wrote: post #178

It is no longer effective to solely use a written essay to measure how deeply a student comprehends a subject. AI is here to stay; new methods should be used to assess student performance. I remember being told at school, that we weren't allowed to use calculators in exams. The line provided by teachers was that we could never rely on having a calculator when we need it most—obviously there's irony associated with ha…

In France my essays were written in class, no phones, no book, just your brain, a sheet a paper and a pen. That's still 100% doable today

It even came with handwriting built in as authentication mechanism! AI detectors hate this secret!

On a more serious note - US removed cursive from their curriculum almost two decades ago - something i cant wrap my head around as cursive is something the rest of the world(?) uses starting in middle school and onwards through the whole adult life.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#352

Post by lnsru »

screcth wrote: post #342
light_hue_1 wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yes. When I'm teaching a class of 200 students it's totally plausible that we're going to do 10 15 minute one on one conversations with every student. Because that's only 20 days non stop with no sleep. We would need to increase the amount of teaching staff by well over 10x to do this. The costs would be astronomical.

Well, you could pick only 10% of the class for one on ones. Pick that 10% randomly or based on your intuition on the authenticity of their work. That threat may be enough to dissuade students from cheating with AI.

Pick 4 students per slot for oral examination and bring an assistant. That’s how my last exam worked. Assistant went through standard questionary and the main lector asked complex questions. The group of 50 was processed in a day with official grades and paperwork.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#353

Post by raincole »

smartmic wrote: post #292
mrweasel wrote: post #184

The part that annoys me is that students apparently have no right to be told why the AI flagged their work. For any process where an computer is allowed to judge people, where should be a rule in place that demands that the algorithm be able explains EXACTLY why it flagged this person. Now this would effectively kill off the current AI powered solution, because they have no way of explaining, or even understanding, w…

I agree with you, but I would go further and turn the tables. An AI should simply not be allowed to evaluate people, in any context whatsoever. For the simple reason that it has been proven not to work (and will also never). Anyone interested to learn more about it, I recommend the recent book "AI Snake Oil" from Arvind Narayanan and Sayash Kapoor [1]. It is a critical but nuanced book and helps to see the whole AI h…

Statistical models (which "AI" is) have been used to evaluate people's outputs since forever.

Examples: Spam detection, copyrighted material detection, etc.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#354

Post by E_Bfx »

renegade-otter wrote: post #314
lwhi wrote: post #178

It is no longer effective to solely use a written essay to measure how deeply a student comprehends a subject. AI is here to stay; new methods should be used to assess student performance. I remember being told at school, that we weren't allowed to use calculators in exams. The line provided by teachers was that we could never rely on having a calculator when we need it most—obviously there's irony associated with ha…

> AI is here to stay Let's not assume a lot right now. OpenAI and other companies are torching through cash like drunken socialist sailors. Will AI be here as a Big Data 2.0 B2B technology? Most likely, but a viable model where students and laypeople have access to it? To be seen. We all mooched off of dumb VC money at one point or another. I acquired a few expensive watches at Fab dot com at 80% off when they were g…

> drunken socialist sailors

Sorry, English is not my first langage what is this expression ? Why does the sailor as to be socialist ? Google didn't help me with this one.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#355

Post by strogonoff »

tonypace wrote: post #336
strogonoff wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best method for assessing performance when learning is as old as the world: assess the effort, not how well the result complies with some requirements. If the level of effort made is high, but the outcome does not comply in some way, praise is due. If the outcome complies, but the level of effort is low, there is no reason for praise (what are you praising? mere compliance?) and you must have set a wrong bar. Not…

It's fairly simple in most situations. If it doesn't involve a computer, it's handwritten in class. If it does involve a computer, it's a temporarily offline computer. We have figured out solutions to these problems already.

You forgot “no homework that counts, or a prison- or monastery-like environment where you have no access to any of these technologies for the length of academic term”. No, humans have not ever had a similar problem before, and also some of the solutions to various problems that we have figured out in our past are no longer considered reasonable today.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#356

Post by [deleted] »

lwhi wrote: post #178

It is no longer effective to solely use a written essay to measure how deeply a student comprehends a subject. AI is here to stay; new methods should be used to assess student performance. I remember being told at school, that we weren't allowed to use calculators in exams. The line provided by teachers was that we could never rely on having a calculator when we need it most—obviously there's irony associated with ha…

[deleted]

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#357

Post by slidehero »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #242
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, this fear is timeless; back when book printing was big, people were fearmongering that people would no longer memorize things but rely too much on books. But in hindsight it ended up becoming a force multiplier. I mean I'm skeptical about AI as well and don't like it, but I can see it becoming a force multiplier itself.

> people were fearmongering that people would no longer memorize things but rely too much on books... Posters here love to bring out this argument, but I think a major weakness is that those people wound up being right . People don't memorize things any more! I don't think it's fair to hold out as an example of fears which didn't come to pass, as they very much did come to pass.

>People don't memorize things any more

....

and it made no difference.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#358

Post by ordu »

gklitz wrote: post #330
lwhi wrote: post #178

It is no longer effective to solely use a written essay to measure how deeply a student comprehends a subject. AI is here to stay; new methods should be used to assess student performance. I remember being told at school, that we weren't allowed to use calculators in exams. The line provided by teachers was that we could never rely on having a calculator when we need it most—obviously there's irony associated with ha…

Written assay evaluation is not and has never been an effective evaluation. It was always a cost saving measure because allocating 30min face to face time with each individual student for each class is such a gigantic cost for the institution that they cannot even imagine doing it. Think about that the next time you look at your student debt, it couldn’t even buy you 30min time per class individually with the teacher…

> It was always a cost saving measure because allocating 30min face to face time with each individual student for each class is such a gigantic cost for the institution that they cannot even imagine doing it.

So the obvious solution is to make students to talk with an AI, which would grade their performance. Or, maybe the grading itself could be done by a minimum wage assistant, while AI would lead the discussion with a student.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#360

Post by _heimdall »

johnisgood wrote: post #325
lotsofpulp wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Fundamental questions like 'why do we work', 'what do we need' and 'what do we want' will be necessarily brought to the fore. All the low paid, physically laborious work is not affected by AI, so there will be plenty of work, especially with aging populations around the world. The question is will it be worth doing (can the recipients of the work pay enough) without being able to provide the dream of being able to o…

Physically laborious work is an increasing problem as you age though.

Historically that's more a question about community. Its a very recent phenomenon to have cultures where parents and grandparents are expected to take care of themselves or live in a home/facility.
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