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Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

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Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#321

Post by 71bw »

kreyenborgi wrote: post #173
Daz1 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a skill issue on your part

Let's test your skills as a plagiarism detector. Below are two paragraphs. One of them was written by an LLM, one by a human. I have only altered whitespace in order to make them scan the same. Can you tell which is which? How much would you bet that you are correct? A. The Pathfinder and The Deerslayer stand at the head of Cooper's novels as artistic creations. There are others of his works which contain parts as pe…

One is the original, the second one is an AI verbatim copy

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3172/3172-h/3172-h.htm#:~:te....

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#322

Post by 15155 »

Iulioh wrote: post #296
red_admiral wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or of racism. There was a thing during the pandemic where automated proctoring tools couldn't cope with people of darker skin than they were trained on; I imagine the first properly verified and scientifically valid examples of AI-detection racism will be found soon.

The "dark skin problem" is mostly the camera sensors, not only the training... Low light scenarios are just a thing, you would need more expensive hardware do deal with it.

> mostly the camera sensors

Could it be mostly just be..reality? More expensive hardware doesn't somehow make a darker surface reflect more energy in the visible spectrum. "Low light" is not the same condition as "dark surface in well-lit environment."

Leaving the visible spectrum is one possible solution, but it's substantially more error-prone and costly. This is still not the same solution as classical CV with "more expensive hardware."

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#323

Post by zelphirkalt »

borski wrote: post #27
happymellon wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately with AI, AI detection, and schools its all rather Judge Dredd. They issue the claim, the judgement and the penalty. And there is nothing you can do about it. Why? Because they *are* the law.

That’s not even remotely true. You can raise it with the local board of education. You can sue the board and/or the school. You can sue the university, and likely even win. They literally are not the law, and that is why you can take them to court.

I hope many more will take them to court, so that they learn a lesson or two, about blindly trusting some proprietary AI tool and accusing without proof. They should learn to hold themselves to higher standards, if they want any future in academics.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#324

Post by johnisgood »

red_admiral wrote: post #278
lwhi wrote: post #178

It is no longer effective to solely use a written essay to measure how deeply a student comprehends a subject. AI is here to stay; new methods should be used to assess student performance. I remember being told at school, that we weren't allowed to use calculators in exams. The line provided by teachers was that we could never rely on having a calculator when we need it most—obviously there's irony associated with ha…

> It is no longer effective to solely use a written essay to measure how deeply a student comprehends a subject. It never was. It's just even more ineffective now that AI exists, than before. The central example of this is college admissions statements. Some kids have the advantage both of parents who can afford to give them the experiences that look good on such an essay (educational trips to Africa, lessons in two…

It is not so black and white though: there is a difference between having your whole essay written by a tutor, or having some things corrected by the tutor, or the tutor giving you general tips that you yourself apply.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#325

Post by johnisgood »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #291
lwhi wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I think all this is unpredictable and destabilizing. I completely agree, but then again it seems to me that society also functions according to many norms that were established due to historical context; and could / should be challenged and replaced. Our education system was based on needs of the industrial revolution. Ditto, the structure of our working week. My bet: We will see our working / waking liv…

>Fundamental questions like 'why do we work', 'what do we need' and 'what do we want' will be necessarily brought to the fore. All the low paid, physically laborious work is not affected by AI, so there will be plenty of work, especially with aging populations around the world. The question is will it be worth doing (can the recipients of the work pay enough) without being able to provide the dream of being able to o…

Physically laborious work is an increasing problem as you age though.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#326

Post by pennaMan »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #209
hhh wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? We've done it for ages, most trust in Wikipedia, and before most trusted in encyclopedias. Books written by others have been used forever. We just shift where we place the trust over time.

I just googled ‘do I need a license to drive a power boat in UK’ I got AI answer saying ‘no’, but actually you do. If I use a calculator it will be correct. If I open encyclopaedia it will mostly be correct, because someone with a brain did at least 5 minutes of thining. We are not talking about some minor detail, AI makes colossal errors with great confidence and conviction.

Try that query in perplexity :) Spoilers: it gets it right and explains the nuances.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#327

Post by johnisgood »

anavat wrote: post #268
pjc50 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I only hope that we get to decide how society responds to that change together .. rather than have it forced upon us. That basically never happens and the outcome is the result of some sort of struggle. Usually just a peaceful one in the courts and legislatures and markets, but a struggle nonetheless. > new methods should be used to assess student performance. Such as? We need an answer now because students are bei…

> But that doesn't scale at all. It doesn't scale if performed by a human. But what if... we employ AI to conduct the voice exams?

Yeah, cloning your own voice, which you can do already. Same with real-time video of yourself.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#328

Post by lwhi »

light_hue_1 wrote: post #277
michaelt wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Such as? We need an answer now because students are being assessed now. Two decades ago, when I was in engineering school, grades were 90% based on in-person, proctored, handwritten exams. So assignments had enough weight to be worth completing, but little enough that if someone cheated, it didn't really matter as the exam was the deciding factor. > Return to the old "viva voce" exam? Still used for PhDs. But that…

Oh yes. When I'm teaching a class of 200 students it's totally plausible that we're going to do 10 15 minute one on one conversations with every student. Because that's only 20 days non stop with no sleep. We would need to increase the amount of teaching staff by well over 10x to do this. The costs would be astronomical.

Would AI be used to carry out the conversation?

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#329

Post by abenga »

anavat wrote: post #268
pjc50 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I only hope that we get to decide how society responds to that change together .. rather than have it forced upon us. That basically never happens and the outcome is the result of some sort of struggle. Usually just a peaceful one in the courts and legislatures and markets, but a struggle nonetheless. > new methods should be used to assess student performance. Such as? We need an answer now because students are bei…

> But that doesn't scale at all. It doesn't scale if performed by a human. But what if... we employ AI to conduct the voice exams?

We end up using AIs to grade AIs in this case.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#330

Post by gklitz »

lwhi wrote: post #178

It is no longer effective to solely use a written essay to measure how deeply a student comprehends a subject. AI is here to stay; new methods should be used to assess student performance. I remember being told at school, that we weren't allowed to use calculators in exams. The line provided by teachers was that we could never rely on having a calculator when we need it most—obviously there's irony associated with ha…

Written assay evaluation is not and has never been an effective evaluation. It was always a cost saving measure because allocating 30min face to face time with each individual student for each class is such a gigantic cost for the institution that they cannot even imagine doing it. Think about that the next time you look at your student debt, it couldn’t even buy you 30min time per class individually with the teacher to evaluate your performance. Instead you had to waste more time on a written assignment so they could offload grading to a minimum wage assistent.
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