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Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

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Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#251
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't learn directions now: we use GPS. We don't do calculations: computers do it for us. We don't accumulate knowledge: we trust Google to give us the information when needed. Everything in a small package everyone can wear all day long. We're at the second step of transhumanism.

At least the first 2 are far more accurate than humans ever could be. The third, i.e. trusting others to vet and find the correct information, is the problem.

Almost.

GPS is great at knowing where you are, but directions are much much harder, and the extra difficulty is why the first version of Apple Maps was widely ridiculed.

Even now, I find it's a mistake to just assume Google Maps can direct me around Berlin public transport better than my own local knowledge — sometimes it can, sometimes it can't.

(But yes, a single original Pi Zero beats all humans combined at arithmetic even if all of us were at the level of the world record holder).

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#252
The education system has not even really adapted to the constant availability of the Internet, and now it has to face LLMs.

If I could short higher education, I would. Literally all its foundational principles are bordering on obviously useless in the modern world, and they keep doubling down on the same fundamentals (a strict set of classes and curriculum, almost complete separation of education with working experience, etc), only adapting their implementation somewhat.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#253
post #214
post #178

It is no longer effective to solely use a written essay to measure how deeply a student comprehends a subject. AI is here to stay; new methods should be used to assess student performance. I remember being told at school, that we weren't allowed to use calculators in exams. The line provided by teachers was that we could never rely on having a calculator when we need it most—obviously there's irony associated with ha…

An essay written under examination conditions is fine. We don’t need new assessment techniques. We have known how to asses that a student and that student alone for centuries.

My ability to write an essay under exam conditions is...poor. Thankfully there were less than a handful of essays I had to write as part of my undergraduate CS degree and I only remember one under exam conditions.

I think it's probably more concerning that spitting out the most generic mathematically formulaic bullshit on a subject is likely to get a decent mark. In that case what are we actually testing for?

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#254
post #205
post #178

It is no longer effective to solely use a written essay to measure how deeply a student comprehends a subject. AI is here to stay; new methods should be used to assess student performance. I remember being told at school, that we weren't allowed to use calculators in exams. The line provided by teachers was that we could never rely on having a calculator when we need it most—obviously there's irony associated with ha…

> I only hope that we get to decide how society responds to that change together .. rather than have it forced upon us. That basically never happens and the outcome is the result of some sort of struggle. Usually just a peaceful one in the courts and legislatures and markets, but a struggle nonetheless. > new methods should be used to assess student performance. Such as? We need an answer now because students are bei…

> Such as? We need an answer now because students are being assessed now.

Two decades ago, when I was in engineering school, grades were 90% based on in-person, proctored, handwritten exams. So assignments had enough weight to be worth completing, but little enough that if someone cheated, it didn't really matter as the exam was the deciding factor.

> Return to the old "viva voce" exam? Still used for PhDs. But that doesn't scale at all.

What? Sure it does. Every extra full-time student at Central Methodist University (from the article) means an extra $27,480 per year in tuition.

It's absolutely, entirely scalable to provide a student taking ten courses with a 15-minute conversation with a professor per class when that student is paying twenty-seven thousand dollars.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#255

For a human who deals with student work or reads job applications spotting AI generated work quickly becomes trivially easy. Text seems to use the same general framework (although words are swapped around) also we see what I call 'word of the week' where whichever 'AI' engine seems to get hung up on a particular English word which is often an unusual one and uses it at every opportunity. It isn't long before you real…

I did engineering at a university, one of the courses that was mandatory was technical communication. The prof understood that the type of person that went into engineering was not necessarily going to appreciate the subtleties of great literature, so they're course work was extremely rote. It was like "Write about a technical subject, doesn't matter what, 1500 words, here's the exact score card". And the score card was like "Uses a sentence to introduce the topic of the paragraph". The result was that you write extremely formulaic prose. Now, I'm not sure that was going to teach people to ever be great communicators, but I think it worked extremely well to bring someone who communicated very badly up to some basic minimum standard. It could be extremely effective applied to the (few) other courseworks that required prose too - partly because by being so formulaic you appealed the overworked PhD student who was likely marking it.

It seems likely that a suitably disciplined student could look a lot like ChatGPT and the cost of a false accusation is extremely high.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was the tail end of when smart women had few intellectually stimulating options and teacher was a decent choice.

[flagged]

What I take from this is that you dont like reading about history much, with clear exception of overly optimistic religious texts. The religious vocation frequently got you into pretty abusive situation and the #1 expectation was "obeisance". That was what you was supposed to do, primary. Not exactly what person you are responding to is writing about.

Moreover, women never needed to start out as teachers to "be ready for childcare". The childcare expectations were much lower at the time, but amount of chores at home massively higher.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#257
post #205
post #178

It is no longer effective to solely use a written essay to measure how deeply a student comprehends a subject. AI is here to stay; new methods should be used to assess student performance. I remember being told at school, that we weren't allowed to use calculators in exams. The line provided by teachers was that we could never rely on having a calculator when we need it most—obviously there's irony associated with ha…

> I only hope that we get to decide how society responds to that change together .. rather than have it forced upon us. That basically never happens and the outcome is the result of some sort of struggle. Usually just a peaceful one in the courts and legislatures and markets, but a struggle nonetheless. > new methods should be used to assess student performance. Such as? We need an answer now because students are bei…

> Such as? We need an answer now because students are being assessed now. Return to the old "viva voce" exam? Still used for PhDs. But that doesn't scale at all.

For a solution "now" to the cheating problem, regular exam conditions (on-site or remote proctoring) should still work more or less the same as they always have. I'd claim that the methods affected by LLMs are those that could already be circumvented by those with money or a smart relative to do the work for them.

Longer-term, I think higher-level courses/exams may benefit from focusing on what humans can do when permitted to use AI tools.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#258
My perspective after talking to a few colleagues in the CS education sector, and based on my own pre-GPT experience:

Classifiers sometimes produce false positives and false negatives. This is not news to anyone who has taken a ML module. We already required students back then to be able to interpret the results they were getting to some extent, as part of the class assignment.

Even before AI detectors, when Turnitin "classic" was the main tool along with JPlag and the like, if you were doing your job properly you would double-check any claims the tool produced before writing someone up for misconduct. AI detectors are no different.

That said, you already catch more students than you would think jut by going for the fruit hanging so low it's practically touching the ground already:

  - Writing or code that's identical for a large section (half a page at least) with material that already exists on the internet. This includes the classic copy-paste from wikipedia, sometimes with the square brackets for references still included. 
  - You still have to check that the student hasn't just made their _own_ git repo public by accident, but that's a rare edge case. But it shows that you always need a human brain in the loop before pushing results from automated tools to the misconduct panel.
  - Hundreds of lines of code that are structurally identical (up to tabs/spaces, variable naming, sometimes comments) with code that can already be found on the internet ("I have seen this code before" from the grader flags this up as least as often as the tools).
  - Writing that includes "I am an AI and cannot make this judgement" or similar.
  - Lots of hallucinated references.
That's more than enough to make the administration groan under the number of misconduct panels we convene every year.

The future in this corner of the world seems to be a mix of

  - invigilated exams with no electronic devices present
  - complementing full-term coding assignments with the occasional invigilated test in the school's coding lab
  - students required to do their work in a repo owned by the school's github org, and assessing the commit history (is everything in one big commit the night before the deadline?). This lets you grade for good working practices/time management, sensible use of branching etc. in team projects, as well as catching the more obvious cases of contract cheating.
  - viva voce exams on the larger assignments, which apart from catching people who have no idea of their own code or the language it was written in, allows you to grade their understanding ("Why did you use a linked list here?" type of questions) especially for the top students.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#259
post #215
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I only hope that we get to decide how society responds to that change together .. rather than have it forced upon us. That basically never happens and the outcome is the result of some sort of struggle. Usually just a peaceful one in the courts and legislatures and markets, but a struggle nonetheless. > new methods should be used to assess student performance. Such as? We need an answer now because students are bei…

> Such as? We need an answer now because students are being assessed now. My current best guess, is to hand the student stuff that was written by an LLM, and challenge them to find and correct its mistakes. That's going to be what they do in their careers, unless the LLMs get so good they don't need to, in which case https://xkcd.com/810/ applies. > Personally I think all this is unpredictable and destabilizing. If t…

> My current best guess, is to hand the student stuff that was written by an LLM, and challenge them to find and correct its mistakes.

Finding errors in a text is a useful exercise, but clearly a huge step down in terms of cognitive challenge from producing a high quality text from scratch. This isn't so much an alternative as it is just giving up on giving students intellectually challenging work.

> That's going to be what they do in their careers

I think this objection is not relevant. Calculators made pen-and-paper arithmetic on large numbers obsolete, but it turns out that the skills you build as a child doing pen-and-paper arithmetic are useful once you move on to more complex mathematics (that is, you learn the skill of executing a procedure on abstract symbols). Pen-and-paper arithmetic may be obsolete as a tool, but learning it is still useful. It's not easy to identify which "useless" skills are still useful as to learn as cognitive training, but I feel pretty confident that writing is one of them.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#260
post #178

It is no longer effective to solely use a written essay to measure how deeply a student comprehends a subject. AI is here to stay; new methods should be used to assess student performance. I remember being told at school, that we weren't allowed to use calculators in exams. The line provided by teachers was that we could never rely on having a calculator when we need it most—obviously there's irony associated with ha…

Was this ever effective? There was a lot of essay copy/pasting when I was in school, and this was when essays had to be hand written (in cursive, of course, using a fountain pen!).

Same with homework. If everyone has to solve the same 10 problems, divide and conquer saves everyone a lot of time.

Of course, you're only screwing yourself because you'll negatively impact your learning, but that's not something you can easily convince kids of.

In person oral exams (once you get over the fear factor) work best, with or without (proctored!) prep time.

Maybe it doesn't scale as well, but education is important enough not to always require maximal efficiency.

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