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Code that helped end Apartheid

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Re: Code that helped end Apartheid

#221

Post by submeta »

underdeserver wrote: post #220
submeta wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. While the situation in Israel differs from that in the West Bank, there are still significant elements of systemic discrimination against Arab citizens. The 2018 Nation-State Law is a prime example, as it: 1. Removedd Arabic as an offical language 2. Defined Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people exclusively 3. Declared Jewish settlements a national value This law effectively codified the second-…

Your comment is complicated in and of itself, even without the enormous historical, legal-theoretic and political context surrounding that law and its enactment.

Constantly framing it as „complicated“ does not make it so. It was populated land, home to muslims, Christians, jews. One state for all. Until Zionism started colonising Palestine. And expelled Christians and muslims. First Zionists called their conferences „Colonising Palestine“. Nothing complicated.

Re: Code that helped end Apartheid

#222

Post by underdeserver »

submeta wrote: post #221
underdeserver wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is complicated in and of itself, even without the enormous historical, legal-theoretic and political context surrounding that law and its enactment.

Constantly framing it as „complicated“ does not make it so. It was populated land, home to muslims, Christians, jews. One state for all. Until Zionism started colonising Palestine. And expelled Christians and muslims. First Zionists called their conferences „Colonising Palestine“. Nothing complicated.

Constantly claiming it is not complicated does not make it so. It was populated land - before Greeks, Romans, Christians and Muslims conquered it and ethnically cleansed the Jews from the area. There wasn't one state - in what is Israel/Palestine today, until 1948, was at least Jordan, Egypt, British Palestine and Syria.

You keep oversimplifying. It's just not simple.

Re: Code that helped end Apartheid

#223

Post by submeta »

underdeserver wrote: post #222
submeta wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Constantly framing it as „complicated“ does not make it so. It was populated land, home to muslims, Christians, jews. One state for all. Until Zionism started colonising Palestine. And expelled Christians and muslims. First Zionists called their conferences „Colonising Palestine“. Nothing complicated.

Constantly claiming it is not complicated does not make it so. It was populated land - before Greeks, Romans, Christians and Muslims conquered it and ethnically cleansed the Jews from the area. There wasn't one state - in what is Israel/Palestine today, until 1948, was at least Jordan, Egypt, British Palestine and Syria. You keep oversimplifying. It's just not simple.

Ahh, here we go again: „Thousands of years ago jewish people populated the area.“ And that’s how nations define their borders in modern days? Who said it was one state? I said it was populated land. People lived there for centuries. Mostly Christian and muslim arabs. Some jewish arabs. And then came a settler colonial ideology in 19th century, way before Holocaust, polish jews, created the idea for a jewish majority homeland in an area that was populated, so they expelled many people from their homes in Palestine. And that led to first Nakba. Today we witness the second Nakba. The most detailed documentation of a Genocide.

Btw: „God‘s chosen people, God‘s promised land, nation state law, jewish majority“. Sounds very racist to me. - If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, it is propably a duck?

Re: Code that helped end Apartheid

#224

Post by underdeserver »

submeta wrote: post #223
underdeserver wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Constantly claiming it is not complicated does not make it so. It was populated land - before Greeks, Romans, Christians and Muslims conquered it and ethnically cleansed the Jews from the area. There wasn't one state - in what is Israel/Palestine today, until 1948, was at least Jordan, Egypt, British Palestine and Syria. You keep oversimplifying. It's just not simple.

Ahh, here we go again: „Thousands of years ago jewish people populated the area.“ And that’s how nations define their borders in modern days? Who said it was one state? I said it was populated land. People lived there for centuries. Mostly Christian and muslim arabs. Some jewish arabs. And then came a settler colonial ideology in 19th century, way before Holocaust, polish jews, created the idea for a jewish majority…

Here we go again with genocide and nakba and settler colonialism.

Here's the thing about settler colonialism: it's when you're sent by an empire to settle on land you're not native to. Jews are native to Israel. Dig in the ground, you'll find coins and pots and tablets in Hebrew.

"Thousands of years ago" is not OK, but "for centuries" is. Sorry, you don't get to choose.

As for the second Nakba, October 7th really was as close to a second holocaust as the Jews experienced, one in a long line of pogroms. To do that and then hide behind and below women, children and innocent civilians you're using as human shields, that's beyond a war crime, it's a crime against humanity.

As for the idea of a Jewish majority homeland, go check the bible. It predates "polish jews in the 19th century" by a few centuries.

Re: Code that helped end Apartheid

#225

Post by submeta »

submeta wrote: post #223
underdeserver wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Constantly claiming it is not complicated does not make it so. It was populated land - before Greeks, Romans, Christians and Muslims conquered it and ethnically cleansed the Jews from the area. There wasn't one state - in what is Israel/Palestine today, until 1948, was at least Jordan, Egypt, British Palestine and Syria. You keep oversimplifying. It's just not simple.

Ahh, here we go again: „Thousands of years ago jewish people populated the area.“ And that’s how nations define their borders in modern days? Who said it was one state? I said it was populated land. People lived there for centuries. Mostly Christian and muslim arabs. Some jewish arabs. And then came a settler colonial ideology in 19th century, way before Holocaust, polish jews, created the idea for a jewish majority…

I ain't readin' all that, mate. Free Palestine.

Re: Code that helped end Apartheid

#226

Post by underdeserver »

submeta wrote: post #225
submeta wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahh, here we go again: „Thousands of years ago jewish people populated the area.“ And that’s how nations define their borders in modern days? Who said it was one state? I said it was populated land. People lived there for centuries. Mostly Christian and muslim arabs. Some jewish arabs. And then came a settler colonial ideology in 19th century, way before Holocaust, polish jews, created the idea for a jewish majority…

I ain't readin' all that, mate. Free Palestine.

They sure can.

Re: Code that helped end Apartheid

#227

Post by cutler »

fldskfjdslkfj wrote: post #219
cutler wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point stands. An atheist claiming God gave him exclusive rights to anything is rank hypocrisy.

I think you missed the point. The claim is based on being native to the lands, has nothing to do with god.

Ask any settler out in the Negev and I think you'll hear a different view.

Re: Code that helped end Apartheid

#228

Post by psd1 »

anthk wrote: post #195
psd1 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

user fldsk means to say 6000 year history, of course. But I'm willing to come down on that, since Genesis is a bit of a chronological hand-wave. I'm relying on whatever Synod counted the ages of people in the talks and arrived at a creation date of 4004 BC, of course If we grant that Italy is Rome, which is a separate conversation, then we're still left with Roman conquest, which we don't consider legitimate today, a…

The Bible is not a valid source, neither is the Talmud. I would trust the Egyptians far more as they wrote down everything.

It's perfectly valid. The word you're looking for is "reliable".

If we were discussing the virgin birth, I wouldn't put any stock in the Bible. The gospels were written after the fact, by people who weren't there and had a strong motivation to make shit up. We conclude that it is _unreliable_ on the topic of the Virgin birth. (It's a reliable source on the topic of Christian beliefs in Nicaea in 300AD, however.)

But the Talmud describes Jews living in Judea at _great length_, which, I'll remind you, implies many hours spent reciting oral history or copying text by hand. It's supported by the existence of the Dead Sea Scrolls. The conspiracy that you suppose is of a flat-earth scale.

I won't discuss the middle east any further. Cunningham's Law got me. if you do want to learn more, try books.

Re: Code that helped end Apartheid

#229

Post by psd1 »

andrepd wrote: post #204
psd1 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

user fldsk means to say 6000 year history, of course. But I'm willing to come down on that, since Genesis is a bit of a chronological hand-wave. I'm relying on whatever Synod counted the ages of people in the talks and arrived at a creation date of 4004 BC, of course If we grant that Italy is Rome, which is a separate conversation, then we're still left with Roman conquest, which we don't consider legitimate today, a…

> Genesis is a bit of a chronological hand-wave What do you mean? Genesis is not remotely a historically accurate narrative at all

Irony. Consensus today is that the earth is 4 billion years old.

Re: Code that helped end Apartheid

#230

Post by aguaviva »

megous wrote: post #215
sceptical wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite a bit of wishful thinking here. Who exactly would be able to defeat Israel? Iran? They are cowering in fear right now. Hamas? Hezbollah? Please.

History is already written, this is the age of everyone recording and sharing things. There's no meaningful rewriting it. They don't get to directly and intentionally kill and/or cause death, injury and illness to high hundreds of thousands of people very publicly and proudly, while writing "death to Arabs", "good Arab = dead Arab", "Nakba 2023", and other vile shit on the walls of their destroyed cities. Easy to see…

While writing "death to Arabs", "good Arab = dead Arab", "Nakba 2023", and other vile shit on the walls of their destroyed cities.

Can you provide incident details, please? I'm not doubting that stuff like this has happened, but specific (at least theoretically reliable) attestations are always helpful.

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