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Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

bloomberg.com

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Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#41

Post by lithos »

jmugan wrote: post #18

My daughter was accused of turning in an essay written by AI because the school software at her online school said so. Her mom watched her write the essay. I thought it was common knowledge that it was impossible to tell whether text was generated by AI. Evidently, the software vendors are either ignorant or are lying, and school administrators are believing them.

AI does have things it does consistently wrong. Especially if you don't narrow down what it's allowed to grab from.

The easiest for someone here to see is probably code generation. You can point at parts of it and go "this part is from a high-school level tutorial", "this looks like it was grabbed from college assignments", and "this is following 'clean code' rules in silly places"(like assuming a vector might need to be Nd, instead of just 3D).

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#42

Post by HarryHirsch »

borski wrote: post #33
HarryHirsch wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In real life it looks like this: https://www.foxnews.com/us/massachusetts-parents-sue-school-... A kid living in a wealthy Boston suburb used AI for his essay (that much is not in doubt) and the family is now suing the district because the school objected and his chances of getting into a good finishing school have dropped. On the other hand you have students attending abusive online universities who are flagged by t…

I’m not sure what “used AI” means here, and the article is unclear, but it sure does sound like he did have it write it for him, and his parents are trying to “save his college admissions” by trying to say “it doesn’t say anywhere that having AI write it is bad, just having other people write it,” which is a specious argument at best. But again: gleaned from a crappy article. You don’t need to be rich to change the l…

The law is unevenly enforced. My wife is currently dealing with a disruptive student from a wealthy family background. It's a chemistry class, you can't endanger your fellow students. Ordinarily, one would throw the kid out of the course, but there would be pushback from the family, and so she is cautious, let's deduct a handful of points, maybe she gets it, and thus it continues.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#43

Post by Animats »

Most of the ChatGPT type systems have a rather blah default style. That's what you learn as a non-native speaker of the language. Thus the problem for people who learned English from textbooks.

Amusingly, you can push ChatGPT type systems into other styles of writing.

I put in the preamble to the US constitution and asked for different styles:

Modern:

We, the people of the United States, come together to build a stronger, more united country. We want to create fairness for everyone, keep peace at home, ensure our safety, support each other’s well-being, and protect our freedoms for ourselves and future generations. This is why we are establishing this Constitution for the United States.

Gun nut:

We the People of the United States, rallying together to create a stronger, more unified nation, are all about upholding justice, keeping the peace at home, and defending our rights. We’re here to support one another, ensure our freedoms, and safeguard the blessings of liberty for ourselves and future generations. That’s why we’re putting this Constitution in place for the United States of America—because we believe in freedom, security, and our right to bear arms!

Woke:

We, the people of the United States, are coming together to create a more inclusive and equitable society. Our goal is to establish justice for all, promote peace within our communities, ensure safety for everyone, and uplift the well-being of every individual. We are committed to protecting our freedoms and rights, not just for ourselves, but for future generations. This is why we are enacting this Constitution for the United States of America, to foster a nation that values diversity, equality, and the dignity of all.

Christian:

We, the people of the United States, gather together in faith and unity to build a more perfect nation under God. Our purpose is to establish justice and promote peace in our homes and communities. We strive to protect our common security and care for one another’s well-being, guided by the principles of love and compassion. In doing so, we seek to uphold the blessings of liberty that God has granted us, not just for ourselves, but for future generations. This is why we commit to this Constitution for the United States of America, as we seek to honor His will in all that we do.

If you're having trouble with essays being detected as AI, you can run them through an LLM to rewrite them in a different tone.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#44

Post by notsound »

prepend wrote: post #22

My kids’ school added a new weapons scanner as kids walk in the door. It’s powered by “AI.” They trust the AI quite a bit. However, the AI identifies the school issued Lenovo laptops as weapons. So every kid was flagged. Rather than stopping using such a stupid tool, they just have the kids remove their laptops before going through the scanner. I expect not smart enough people are buying “AI” products and trusting th…

Were they Evolv? https://www.theverge.com/2024/4/2/24119275/evolv-technologie...

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#45

Post by stouset »

nitwit005 wrote: post #10

In some cases students have fought such accusations by showing their professor the tool flags the professor's work. Don't know why these companies are spending so much developing this technology, when their customers clearly aren't checking how well it works.

The companies selling these aren’t “spending so much developing the technology”. They’re following the same playbook as snake oil salesmen and people huckstering supplements online do: minimum effort into the product, maximum effort into marketing it.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#46

Post by Ekaros »

flappyeagle wrote: post #36

Rather than flagging it as AI why don’t we flag if it’s good or not? I work with people in their 30s That cannot write their way out of a hat. Who cares if the work is AI assisted or not. Most AI writing is super dry, formulaic and bad. The student doesn’t recognize this the give them a poor mark for having terrible style.

Because often goal of assessing student is not that they can generate output. It is to ensure they have retained sufficient amount of knowledge they are supposed to retain from course and be able regurgitate it in sufficiently readable format.

Actually being able to generate good text is entirely separate evaluation. And AI might have place there.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#47

Post by OptionOfT »

gradus_ad wrote: post #12

Seems like the easy fix here is move all evaluation in-class. Are schools really that reliant on internet/computer based assignments? Actually, this could be a great opportunity to dial back unnecessary and wasteful edu-tech creep.

That overall would be the right thing. Homework is such a weird concept when you think about it. Especially if you get graded on the correctness. There is no step between the teacher explaining and you validating whether you understood the material.

Teacher explains material, you get homework about the material and are graded on it.

It shouldn't be like that. If the work (i.e. the exercises) are important to grasp the material, they should be done in class.

Also removes the need of hiring tutors.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#48

Post by Animats »

Animats wrote: post #43

Most of the ChatGPT type systems have a rather blah default style. That's what you learn as a non-native speaker of the language. Thus the problem for people who learned English from textbooks. Amusingly, you can push ChatGPT type systems into other styles of writing. I put in the preamble to the US constitution and asked for different styles: Modern: We, the people of the United States, come together to build a stro…

Xi Thought:

We, the people of the United States, unite to forge a more harmonious society, guided by the principles of collective strength and shared responsibility. Our aim is to establish justice and maintain social stability, ensuring the well-being of all citizens through solidarity and mutual support. By safeguarding our national defense and promoting the common welfare, we embody the spirit of unity and progress. This commitment to our foundational values is why we establish this Constitution for the United States of America, as we work toward a prosperous future for all.

MAGA:

We, the great people of the United States, are coming together to create a stronger, more united nation. Our mission is to establish true justice, ensure peace in our communities, and defend our country with pride. We’re all about promoting the well-being of hard-working Americans and securing our freedoms for ourselves and future generations. That’s why we’re affirming this Constitution for the United States of America—because we believe in making our nation great and preserving our rights for all!

Martin Luther King:

We, the people of the United States, come together in a spirit of unity and purpose, striving to create a more perfect union. It is our sacred duty to establish justice and ensure tranquility in our communities, uplifting one another in love and understanding. We must provide for the common defense and promote the welfare of all, recognizing that true freedom is a collective journey. In this endeavor, we seek to secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and future generations. Therefore, we affirm this Constitution for the United States of America as a testament to our commitment to equality, justice, and the enduring hope for a brighter tomorrow.

Trump:

We, the amazing people of the United States, are coming together to build a tremendous nation, folks. Our goal? To create a more perfect union—believe me, it’s going to be fantastic! We’re establishing real justice, keeping our communities safe, and defending our great country. We’re promoting the welfare of all hardworking Americans and securing our incredible freedoms for ourselves and our future generations. That’s why we’re putting this Constitution in place for the United States of America—because we’re making America great again, and nobody does it better!

ChatGPT has automatic blithering nailed.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#49

Post by from-nibly »

This is not something that reveals how bad AI is or how dumb administration is. It's revealing how fundamentally dumb our educational system is. It's incredibly easy to subvert. And kids don't find value in it.

Helping kids find value in education is the only important concern here and adding an AI checker doesn't help with that.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#50

Post by aaplok »

radioactivist wrote: post #17
gradus_ad wrote: post #12

Seems like the easy fix here is move all evaluation in-class. Are schools really that reliant on internet/computer based assignments? Actually, this could be a great opportunity to dial back unnecessary and wasteful edu-tech creep.

Out of class evaluations doesn't mean electronic. It could be problem sets, essays, longer-form things like projects. All of these things are difficult to do in a limited time window. These limited time-window assessments are also (a) artificial (don't always reflect how the person might use their knowledge later) (b) stressful (some people work better/worse with a clock ticking) and (c) subject to more variability d…

It could also be hybrid, with an out-of-class and an in-class components. There could even be multiple steps, with in-class components aimed at both verifying authorship and providing feedback in an iterative process.

AI makes it impossible to rely on out-of-class assignments to evaluate the kids' knowledge. How we respond to that is unclear, but relying on cheating detectors is not going to work.

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