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Accountability sinks

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Re: Accountability sinks

#51
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our meat is bought from the butcher, delivered to the chef so it comes not as an animal, but part of a tasty dish. If we eat meat, we should kill it ourselves.

I get a lot of shit for saying this, but I agree completely! I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with eating animals. But I have a particularly carnivorous friend who thinks hunting is for sociopaths, because he “loves animals”. If I wouldn’t harvest it, I won’t eat it. And I definitely would be too timid to slaughter a freaking cow lol

I think it's a matter of hygiene and speed. Sure I could butcher a chicken, maybe have a shot at a bigger animal like a goat or cow. I've seen it multiple times since I live in a country that regularly do animal sacrifice. But I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to do it as clean or as fast as the usual butcher.

It does feel different from market-bought meat though, at least for me.

Re: Accountability sinks

#52

Cathy O'Neil's "Weapons of Math Destruction" (2016, Penguin Random House) is a good companion to this concept, covering the "accountability sink" from the other side of those constructing or overseeing systems. Cathy argues that the use of algorithm in some contexts permits a new scale of harmful and unaccountable systems that ought to be reigned in. https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/241363/weapons-of-m...

"Cathy argues that the use of algorithm in some contexts permits a new scale of harmful and unaccountable systems that ought to be reigned in." Algorithms are used by people. An algorithm only allows "harmful and unaccountable systems" if people, as the agents imposing accountability, choose to not hold the people acting by way of the algorithm accountable on the basis of the use of the algorithm, but...that really h…

Yeah, I think you're conflating the arguments of "Weapons of Math Destruction" and "The Unaccountability Machine" here.

"The Unaccountability Machine," based on Mandy's summary in the OP, argues that organizations can become "accountability sinks" which make it impossible for anyone to be held accountable for problems those organizations cause. Put another way (from the perspective of their customers), they eliminate any recourse for problems arising from the organization which ought to in theory be able to address, but can't because of the form and function of the organization.

"Weapons of Math Destruction" argues that the scale of algorithmic systems often means that when harms arise, those harms happen to a lot of people. Cathy argues this scale itself necessitates treating these algorithmic systems differently because of their disproportionate possibility for harm.

Together, you can get big harmful algorithmic systems, able to operate at scale which would be impossible without technology, which exist in organizations that act as accountability sinks. So you get mass harm with no recourse to address it.

This is what I meant by the two pieces being complementary to each other.

Re: Accountability sinks

#54
post #53

Interesting. Wonder sometimes how much of consulting business is motivated by accountability avoidance - "accountability sinks" for hire

I don’t know how much it works with consulting because someone has to approve paying them. If they do a bad job you can blame whoever brought them in. It does make it easier to do something you were going to do anyways though.

Re: Accountability sinks

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's much easier to hold an algorithm accountable than an organization of humans. You can reprogram an algorithm. But good look influencing an organization to change

That is not accountability. Can the algorithm be sent to jail if it commit crimes?

Yes. Not literally of course, but it can be deleted/decommissioned, which is even more effective than temporary imprisonment (it's equivalent to death penalty but without the moral component obviously).

Re: Accountability sinks

#56
I liked this article a lot - it made me think about the ways large companies operate from a different viewpoint.

At the same time, though, I think it's a mistake to leave out the fact that, in many ways, modern society is just so fundamentally complex that we (as a society at large) deliberately forego demanding accountability because we believe the system is so complex that it's impossible to assign blame to a single person.

For example, given this is HN and many of us are software developers, how many times have we collectively supported "blameless cultures" when it comes to identifying and fixing software defects. We do this because we believe that software is so complex, and "to err is human", that it would be a disservice to assign blame to an individual - we say instead that the process should assume mistakes are inevitable, and then improve the process to find those mistakes earlier in the software lifecycle.

But while I believe a "blameless culture" is valuable, I think a lot of times you can identify who was at fault. I mean, somebody at CrowdStrike decided to push a data update, without verifying it first, that bluescreened a good portion of the world's Windows machines and caused billions in damages.

I just think that if you believe "accountability sinks" are always a bad thing, don't forget the flip side: would things always be better if we could always assign "root cause blame" to a specific individual?

Re: Accountability sinks

#57
I feel like the article, or perhaps just the example, is missing the point.

>> a higher up at a hospitality company decides to reduce the size of its cleaning staff, because it improves the numbers on a balance sheet somewhere. Later, you are trying to check into a room, but it’s not ready and the clerk can’t tell you when it will be; they can offer a voucher, but what you need is a room.

This reads from the perspective of a person checking in. But it should read from the perspective of the person who made the decision.

The decision was made like this; On most days we have too many cleaners. If we reduce the cleaners we reduce expenses by x.

On some days some customers will need to wait to check-in. Let's move checkin time from 1pm to 2pm (now in some cases to 4pm) to compensate. n% of customers arrive after 4pm anyway. We start cleaning early, so chances are we can accommodate early checkin where necessary.

Where there's no room available before 4pm, some % will complain. Most of those will be placated with a voucher [1] which cost us nothing.

Some small fraction will declare "they'll never use us again". Some will (for reasons) but we'll lose a few.

But the savings outweigh the lost business. Put some of the savings into marketing and sales will go up. Costs remain lower. More profit.

There is perfect accountability of this plan - the board watches to see if profits go up. They don't care about an individual guest with individual problems. The goal of the business is not to "make everyone happy". It's to "make enough people happy" to keep profits.

[1] the existance of the voucher proves this possibility was accounted for.

So accountability in this case is working - except for the customer who didn't get what they want. The customer feels frustrated, so from their perspective there's a failure. But there are other perspectives in play. And they are working as designed.

Re: Accountability sinks

#58
Tom Schelling's 'The Strategy of Conflict' touches on similar themes, but mostly in a more positive light.

One of his examples is that you should make yourself unavailable for contact, when you suspect someone is trying to blackmail you.

That's exactly the same severing of a link as described in the article.

Re: Accountability sinks

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's much easier to hold an algorithm accountable than an organization of humans. You can reprogram an algorithm. But good look influencing an organization to change

That is not accountability. Can the algorithm be sent to jail if it commit crimes?

Is the point revenge or fixing the problem? Fixing the algorithm to never do that again is easy. Or is the point to instill fear?

Re: Accountability sinks

#60
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not accountability. Can the algorithm be sent to jail if it commit crimes?

Yes. Not literally of course, but it can be deleted/decommissioned, which is even more effective than temporary imprisonment (it's equivalent to death penalty but without the moral component obviously).

Why should it be obvious that the moral component is absent? Removing an algorithm is like reducing the set of choices available to society… roughly equivalent to a law or regulation, or worse, a destructive act of coercion. There are moral implications of laws even though laws are not human
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