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Svelte 5 Released

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Re: Svelte 5 Released

#131

Post by Waterluvian »

VMtest wrote: post #130
Waterluvian wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t speak for the majority, but for my team it’s because it’s not worth the distraction. We’ve got years of experience and tooling and “tradition” with one approach. Why do we want a second? It’s also just not an interesting issue. In my experience, the actual coding (and later maintenance) of a web application is the least challenging, least interesting part of the project. At that stage, all the interesting pro…

From users' point of view, they only care about the performance really Some e-commerce apps use React in WebView on Android and the apps will become unresponsive after visiting several product pages (more than 10 probably). They have to be force closed and opened to be used again

Yeah. And that’s basically the thing, right?

If I need to hit a certain performance because the business has concluded that it matters, and React can’t get us there, then I’m likely switching to Svelte or whatnot.

If none of my tools can do the job, I’m going to the store and buying a new tool and learning how to use it. I don’t feel ideologically attached to my palm sander. I’ll buy a belt sander if the palm doesn’t make sense for a task.

Re: Svelte 5 Released

#132

Post by nophunphil »

russellpekala wrote: post #128

If you like Svelte, Yuzu Health is hiring developers to work in Svelte in New York City. https://yuzu.health/careers/senior-software-engineer Seems like the number of companies using Svelte in production is growing but still not super high.

Russ - can you please explain the rationale for "In person NYC 5 days a week" and that it's non-negotiable? It seems that you're restricting your talent pool in a labor market that prefers remote work. Given that the Svelte talent pool is smaller as-is, this is counter-intuitive.

Re: Svelte 5 Released

#133

Post by recursive »

colonelspace wrote: post #68
stormfather wrote: post #53

An interesting datapoint: I made my first website a few months ago (I'm an ML engineer). I tried in both Svelte and React. I used Sonnet as a copilot the whole time and expected Svelte to be more difficult because there are orders of magnitude less training data on it. To the contrary! The LLM tied itself in knots very quickly with React but mostly did ok with Svelte/Sveltekit. Also, the Svelte stuff it makes is usua…

Another interesting datapoint: Every time I try out something other than React (Vue, Svelte, etc), I have to learn some new syntax, understand the runtime magic, and add a syntax/LSP to my editor. But React is just JS/TS, which is straightforward. Being disappointed by a library/framework because your LLM of choice can't produce decent code doesn't really tell me very much about the library, other than it's usage is…

The difficulty with react generally isn't the syntax. It's the constraints of hooks and reconciliation. Since mutation is always disallowed (but not by mechanical constraints) data changes are harder to express. You have to remember to keep your effect dependency list synchronized even though the linter can tell you when it's wrong. State continuity depends on the heuristics of the reconciler considering this component instance (and all its parents) to be some particular component instance from a previous render function output.

The syntax is maybe the only good part of react. And I still think the way it uses JSX is not great. Conditionals and .map seem... weird.

But yes, judged from syntax only, react is ok.

Re: Svelte 5 Released

#134

Post by argentinian »

shepherdjerred wrote: post #63
gfs wrote: post #15

Where would one even start learning more about front-end development in today's world? Ignoring the dizzying amount of frameworks, how could I become knowledgeable enough to connect my back-end experience to design the "full stack?"

The minimum to be a broadly employable frontend dev is to have knowledge HTML + CSS + JavaScript/TypeScript + React/Vue. Svelte is pretty niche. I'm not saying you shouldn't learn it, but that you should focus on the common tools first. This is just like you might tell a friend learning programming to learn Java/Python/Go etc. before getting into Lisp/Haskell/Prolog. All are useful and have their place, but one set o…

Would you use Astro for other type of sites apart from static ones?

I'm not sure if I understand well its use case. It's not for cases when there's complex backend logic, right? What other technologies can be replaced by Astro, to have an example?

Re: Svelte 5 Released

#135

Post by shepherdjerred »

argentinian wrote: post #134
shepherdjerred wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The minimum to be a broadly employable frontend dev is to have knowledge HTML + CSS + JavaScript/TypeScript + React/Vue. Svelte is pretty niche. I'm not saying you shouldn't learn it, but that you should focus on the common tools first. This is just like you might tell a friend learning programming to learn Java/Python/Go etc. before getting into Lisp/Haskell/Prolog. All are useful and have their place, but one set o…

Would you use Astro for other type of sites apart from static ones? I'm not sure if I understand well its use case. It's not for cases when there's complex backend logic, right? What other technologies can be replaced by Astro, to have an example?

Astro is _really_ great for static sites. It doesn't feel heavy like Gatsby and Hugo do. I understand what's going on and I get to write JSX that compiles to static HTML.

> What other technologies can be replaced by Astro, to have an example?

As I mentioned above, and you hit on this too, I think Astro can replace static site generators. It wouldn't replace React (or your favorite framework), but it would use those frameworks to reduce your overall reliance on JavaScript and let most of your site be static HTML.

Astro has "island" pattern which allows you to selectively use JS frameworks on portions of pages where interactivity is required. You can use React, Vue, Svelte, etc.

The big benefit of islands is that the majority of your site is static HTML and only the bits of each page that actually need JS rely on it vs React where your entire site would use JS.

I haven't used this feature but I have heard that people really like it.

https://docs.astro.build/en/concepts/islands/

Re: Svelte 5 Released

#136

Post by schnebbau »

nophunphil wrote: post #132
russellpekala wrote: post #128

If you like Svelte, Yuzu Health is hiring developers to work in Svelte in New York City. https://yuzu.health/careers/senior-software-engineer Seems like the number of companies using Svelte in production is growing but still not super high.

Russ - can you please explain the rationale for "In person NYC 5 days a week" and that it's non-negotiable? It seems that you're restricting your talent pool in a labor market that prefers remote work. Given that the Svelte talent pool is smaller as-is, this is counter-intuitive.

Presumably because whoever's in charge decided that's how they want to run their business.

Re: Svelte 5 Released

#137

Post by lenkite »

BodyCulture wrote: post #96
clessg wrote: post #14

Exciting, I love Svelte! Does anybody have experience with both Vue and Svelte? It's been a while since I used Vue but it seems like both frameworks have converged quite a bit over the years. With this release I'm particularly curious now: why would somebody pick one over the other?

There is no way around trying yourself. Stop wasting time asking people for their opinions about frameworks and start building your own insights from first hand experience.

Its a valid question, esp if you haven't used a framework for years and want to get to know what other people think of the newer versions. Nobody has time to keep up with all the JS frameworks unless they are a youtuber who does framework comparison as their full time job. And even those youtubers fall behind in the JS world.

Re: Svelte 5 Released

#138

Post by terandle »

h_tbob wrote: post #98

I don't understand how React is so popular, still. With Svelte and Vue, I don't think anybody should do a new project with React.

This is why I think react is still the best: In react you only deal with plain values. You never have to worry about wrapping a value in an observable or calling it in a function with a tracking context. Or .valueing it or whatever.

It looks like Svelte 5 is trying to make signals "disappear" but they still leak through. Reading the docs about shallow $state.raw vs deep proxying the default $state rune in svelte 5 makes me really appreciate the plain value and simpleness of react.

The react compiler will make the biggest headache of react go away, that being useMemo, memo, and useCallback.

React has the biggest and highest quality ecosystem. It has the smartest and brightest people in this space working either on react directly or in the immediate surrounding ecosystem. React has by far the most $ backing it.

Looking ahead I think react makes the best immediate AI target. Long term AI will go past react but while we still want to vet the code with humans react will probably be the best target.

Thought of another important reason why I love react:

- It has the best TypeScript support of any framework. Partly because MS is so invested in react the typescript team is very incentivized to have good support for them.

Oh yeah and this one is imporant:

- React Native with expo is the best way to make cross platform mobile apps. Yes its better than Flutter.

Re: Svelte 5 Released

#139

Post by pier25 »

I've been using Svelte since v3 was released almost daily. I've been using v5 for the past couple of weeks and it's fantastic.

The biggest improvement IMO is that you can now write reactive logic intuitively outside your components and it just works without needing to use complex machinery or patterns like Mobx, Redux, or Vuex.

I've been doing frontend since the 90s and used everything under the sun. Svelte 5 is the most pragmatic and elegant solution I've ever used.

Re: Svelte 5 Released

#140

Post by eviks »

Waterluvian wrote: post #131
VMtest wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From users' point of view, they only care about the performance really Some e-commerce apps use React in WebView on Android and the apps will become unresponsive after visiting several product pages (more than 10 probably). They have to be force closed and opened to be used again

Yeah. And that’s basically the thing, right? If I need to hit a certain performance because the business has concluded that it matters, and React can’t get us there, then I’m likely switching to Svelte or whatnot. If none of my tools can do the job, I’m going to the store and buying a new tool and learning how to use it. I don’t feel ideologically attached to my palm sander. I’ll buy a belt sander if the palm doesn’t…

But your tools can't do the "performance" job right now, it's just that there is enough "friction" in the management/decision chain that it may not be decided on by "the business".

Though the desire to improve without external pressure could be considered ideological

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