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Impact of early life adversity on reward processing in young adults (2014)

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Re: Impact of early life adversity on reward processing in young adults (2014)

#91

Post by LouisSayers »

SoftTalker wrote: post #51

I don't really see how there can be any question that chaos, poverty, moving every year, constantly changing schools, multiple and changing "parent" figures, adults making poor choices over and over, no examples of deliberate planning and saving for the future, screws up kids. They learn that life is completely unpredictable, that opportunities for reward should be taken immediately because they will not be there lat…

> They learn that life is completely unpredictable

As someone with pretty much the upbringing you described, I don't think this was the takeaway.

For me personally, I learnt adaptability, how to adjust to new situations and people quickly.

I saw what my parents did and said "I don't want to be like that".

The downside is, it's hard to answer "where are you from?", or to know where home is, and it's especially frustrating as an adult to see your parents continue to make bad decisions, to continue to be broke etc.

I know everyone is different, but anecdotally my sister and brother also seem to be doing relatively well.

Re: Impact of early life adversity on reward processing in young adults (2014)

#92

Post by hindsightbias »

taeric wrote: post #45

I'm growing stronger in a belief that teaching/indoctrination matters more than just general experience. Don't get me wrong, I fully agree that life experiences are their own teaching. However, it seems clear that a coach/teacher added to the exact same experiences can lead to different learning. Curious if folks have any links to studies that disprove that?

Moved a lot when young and generally not the greatest learning experiences but low in comparison to the adversity of many peers.

One teacher recognized I had a learning disability at elementary level before teachers were trained on that kind of thing. Was able to work through that over time.

HS counselor nominated me for a program that involved a long weekend trip to a medium sized university city. Never understood why I alone was chosen over peers.

I think it happens to a lot of kids that way, it didn't take a village, curriculum or a coordinated effort. Just one or two educators doing one thing and changing a life completely. I'm sure just one authority figure over time can have a huge impact.

Re: Impact of early life adversity on reward processing in young adults (2014)

#93

Post by thyrsus »

jamalaramala wrote: post #28
potato3732842 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tread carefully. Your comment has the aroma of exactly the sort of first order thinking that over the past 50yr resulted in welfare programs exacerbating that exact list of problems (among others) that you're saying we can solve with more welfare. I don't know what the solution is but using government to replace or supplement the kind of support that people traditionally got from their family, friends and network has…

> Tread carefully. Your comment has the aroma of exactly the sort of first order thinking that over the past 50yr resulted in welfare programs exacerbating that exact list of problems (among others) that you're saying we can solve with more welfare. Who says that the welfare programs exacerbate the problems? Perhaps it is the lack of welfare programs (particularly in the US, the richest country in the world) that cau…

At one point, U.S. welfare programs directed at single mothers appeared to cause an increase in single mothers. Fathers either actually left or had to hide their participation in the family lest the mother become ineligible for assistance. The dominant culture is that the poor are morally unfit and undeserving, and the welfare programs reflect that. Politicians emphasize their benefits to the middle class, almost never the poor.

Re: Impact of early life adversity on reward processing in young adults (2014)

#94

Post by safety1st »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #90
safety1st wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The therapist, psychologist or psychiatrist cannot make society conform to the patient. They may, however, be able to convince the patient that conforming to society is not so bad. In my experience therapists are genuinely attempting to alleviate the suffering of their patients, and reducing the conflict between the patient's expectations and society's may very well be a route to that. They are not there to teach you…

"Alleviate the suffering of their patients". Yeah, I know. I'm still not a fan of telling patients that their world view is all wrong, that their brains don't think right and that they need to be fixed. That invalidates their lives and their experiences. These aren't Alzheimer's patients whose brains are slowly degenerating. Many of these neurodivergents are very capable people when the conditions are right. Society'…

Some very good points!

Re: Impact of early life adversity on reward processing in young adults (2014)

#95

Post by taeric »

airstrike wrote: post #86
taeric wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, maybe? They experience that life is completely unpredictable, sure. They learn whatever they are taught along with it. Consider, life was far more unpredictable just a few hundred years ago. Literally stubbing your toe in the forest could go septic and then you were dead. Violently so. Bad harvests could happen with no forewarning at all.

The fact that stubbing your toe meant death in the past doesn't mean that facing massive adversity doesn't have real negative long term impact on one's mental well being. You're equating psychological harm and learned patterns of behavior that are unresourceful with physical accidents, without explaining why we should see them as comparable. Even if they were comparable, who's to say Neanderthal younglings with badly…

Example of stubbing toe was about how unpredictable life was. Getting a wound to go septic was basically random for a long long time. Most of the time, stubbing your toe was about the same as it is today. Annoying and nothing more. Have it go septic, though, and it likely looked like someone had been cursed to death. And note that this goes for more than just literally stubbing your toe. Snag on a bush? Bitten by animal. It would have seemed far far more random.

My post is specifically in response to the one above me. It is framed with modern events and pushing that they are obviously going to seem unpredictable to people. My assertion is that they can be seen that way, sure; but don't think this is somehow a modern thing.

To your point, I would expect that reward processing is influenced by these events, sure. I would also expect any indoctrination that was happening at the same time to stick. My current bias is to expect indoctrination to stick more effectively than raw experiences. And yes, this is somewhat cheating because the indoctrination is almost certainly done to compliment experiences.

Re: Impact of early life adversity on reward processing in young adults (2014)

#96

Post by taeric »

airstrike wrote: post #87
taeric wrote: post #45

I'm growing stronger in a belief that teaching/indoctrination matters more than just general experience. Don't get me wrong, I fully agree that life experiences are their own teaching. However, it seems clear that a coach/teacher added to the exact same experiences can lead to different learning. Curious if folks have any links to studies that disprove that?

One such life adversity can be having bad teachers and unhelpful indoctrination in early life. If anything you're corroborating TFA's argument?

Sure? That feels to be stretching the adversity definition, though. Not having a good teacher does not mean you necessarily had a bad one, after all.

Re: Impact of early life adversity on reward processing in young adults (2014)

#97

Post by lazyasciiart »

taeric wrote: post #95
airstrike wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that stubbing your toe meant death in the past doesn't mean that facing massive adversity doesn't have real negative long term impact on one's mental well being. You're equating psychological harm and learned patterns of behavior that are unresourceful with physical accidents, without explaining why we should see them as comparable. Even if they were comparable, who's to say Neanderthal younglings with badly…

Example of stubbing toe was about how unpredictable life was. Getting a wound to go septic was basically random for a long long time. Most of the time, stubbing your toe was about the same as it is today. Annoying and nothing more. Have it go septic, though, and it likely looked like someone had been cursed to death. And note that this goes for more than just literally stubbing your toe. Snag on a bush? Bitten by ani…

Arbitrary danger in nature is where religion came from.

Re: Impact of early life adversity on reward processing in young adults (2014)

#98

Post by taeric »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #97
taeric wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Example of stubbing toe was about how unpredictable life was. Getting a wound to go septic was basically random for a long long time. Most of the time, stubbing your toe was about the same as it is today. Annoying and nothing more. Have it go septic, though, and it likely looked like someone had been cursed to death. And note that this goes for more than just literally stubbing your toe. Snag on a bush? Bitten by ani…

Arbitrary danger in nature is where religion came from.

This largely runs to my point. It wasn't the arbitrary danger that led to religion. It was people teaching that the danger was from a directed source that did. Put differently, without priests, would there be religion?

Re: Impact of early life adversity on reward processing in young adults (2014)

#99

Post by winwang »

crazygringo wrote: post #75
8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans are antifragile. They survive disease, famine, loss, death of kin, all sorts of horrible abuse and still manage to build a great life afterwards. Look at all of the people who survived German concentration camps and still were able to live lives worth living after the fact. Not everybody, but it's clearly possible.

> Humans are antifragile. This is not true at all. Some survive, but many die from the things you've described. Of those that survive, many fail completely to build a great life afterwards. They succumb to alcoholism, other addictions, and many die later from suicide. Talk to any therapist and you'll find out that human fragility is the rule rather than the exception. After traumatic events, even those that "still ma…

Can anecdotally confirm as a data point myself along with some people I know.

Certainly, I can be viewed as stereotypically successful by my buddies. Certainly, because the mask we wear should be strong and never come off. But in my nights alone, or even in my therapy sessions, who could possibly see that 'me'?

I have come to realize, though, that most people who didn't suffer much, refuse (implicitly, not explicitly) to empathize with those who have -- perhaps even I may be included in this group which 'refuse implicitly' at time. It's not that big of a deal, though. (Generalized) Empathy is a difficult skill to train.

Re: Impact of early life adversity on reward processing in young adults (2014)

#100

Post by malfist »

_yb2s wrote: post #76
Jerrrrrrry wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Ya get high before ya actually get high, once ya know ya got it"

Yeah, it is surprising how many of the most dangerous effects of addictive drugs for example happen when you are not immediately experiencing their effects- the actions people take to obtain them. In that sense, I think the idea of downplaying non-drug addictions as categorically less important, e.g. "not chemically addictive" is a mistaken perspective.

I completely agree and you can see it how some people absolutely can't help but destroy their life gambling or thrill seeking or hell, even chasing karma/likes/numbers on social media.

It's still hacking the brain if you make the perfect Skinner box and take all their life savings and then some

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