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Code that helped end Apartheid

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Re: Code that helped end Apartheid

#61

Post by tow21 »

McBainiel wrote: post #9

The tech side of this is really cool but I'd also like to read more about the non-tech stuff. I wonder if the sympathetic Dutch flight attendant is still alive or the guys who actually carried the Trojan horse books to Mandela. What an amazing story!

Coincidentally I was reading this story yesterday:

https://www.londonrecruits.org.uk/index.php/items-received-s...

about the “London Recruits” in the 70s and 80s who smuggled books, leaflets, etc into apartheid SA on behalf of the ANC, doing so in such secrecy they didn’t know each others identity until 29 years after the apartheid regime fell.

Joy Leman, one of the recruits, was my late father-in-law’s colleague.

Re: Code that helped end Apartheid

#62

Post by bdndndndbve »

TheBruceHimself wrote: post #38
bdndndndbve wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What actually ended apartheid was international pressure and the white government's fear of a civil war. Economically isolated and vastly outnumbered, the apartheid government would have been completely removed from the country and had their property seized. My understanding is Mandela was a respected leader who was willing to play ball and facilitate a peaceful transition where the white leadership got to keep all t…

While it certainly involved a lot of people doing the right thing, that peaceful transition was absolutely incredible and I really do think that's why non-South Africans look on Mandela so fondly. If you'd told me everything about the Apartheid right up until its collapse and then said "Ok, the ANC basically win, gain power, what do you think happens?", I'd struggle to think of any scenario where there wasn't incredi…

Does poverty not also ruin lives? There's room for people to disagree about the specifics but the lack of widespread wealth redistribution has certainly killed a lot of people as well, it's just easier to ignore than a war.

Re: Code that helped end Apartheid

#63

Post by tdeck »

mmooss wrote: post #55
GordonS wrote: post #15

[flagged]

> Protests and petitions are completely ineffective They have been effective for millenia, even before democracy. The only thing ineffective now is people saying so. With all the evidence in the world that protest works, people bizarrely disarm themselves. The targets of the protests take great pains to convince you of it; that should tell you something. They'll bluff until they lose.

I think this greatly depends on rhe type of protest, specifically whether it threatens the ruling class's ability to make a profit or to govern. In recent centuries liberal governments have gotten better at channeling discontent into forms of protest that are less consequential and more performative.

Re: Code that helped end Apartheid

#64

Post by giraffe_lady »

GordonS wrote: post #58
mmooss wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Protests and petitions are completely ineffective They have been effective for millenia, even before democracy. The only thing ineffective now is people saying so. With all the evidence in the world that protest works, people bizarrely disarm themselves. The targets of the protests take great pains to convince you of it; that should tell you something. They'll bluff until they lose.

Millions protested the Vietnam war. Many millions more protested the Iraq war. Millions upon millions have protested against Israel's genocide of the Palestinian people for an entire year. Now those same people also protest against Israel's invasion of Lebanon. It has been ineffective. We've seen peaceful protestors smeared, and beaten and harassed by the police. We've seen counter terror laws abused to smear and arr…

We're also entering our third generation of peaceful protest against climate change with no effects whatsoever.

Protest movements are only effective when they present a viable alternative to a more radical movement with a will to violence at their flank. We saw this clearly in the indian independence & american civil rights movements, and the fall of apartheid. Iraq war and climate movement are what you get without the credible threat of violence behind or beside your peaceful protests.

One important lesson of the iraq war protests now that we can see with hindsight: we were right, and we were justified in using much more radical tactics than we actually did. Those horrors lay partially at our coward feet so let's not allow ourselves to be convinced to repeat it with palestine.

Re: Code that helped end Apartheid

#65

Post by mmooss »

GordonS wrote: post #58
mmooss wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Protests and petitions are completely ineffective They have been effective for millenia, even before democracy. The only thing ineffective now is people saying so. With all the evidence in the world that protest works, people bizarrely disarm themselves. The targets of the protests take great pains to convince you of it; that should tell you something. They'll bluff until they lose.

Millions protested the Vietnam war. Many millions more protested the Iraq war. Millions upon millions have protested against Israel's genocide of the Palestinian people for an entire year. Now those same people also protest against Israel's invasion of Lebanon. It has been ineffective. We've seen peaceful protestors smeared, and beaten and harassed by the police. We've seen counter terror laws abused to smear and arr…

First, that is cherry-picking. We can find lots of examples of protest being effective. [0] And as I pointed out elsewhere, the right wing - while teaching their enemies to quit - embraces activism fully and has been incredibly successful.

It's only ineffective if your measure is immediate, complete victory. You don't win everything, you face defeat, and you quit? Then I agree, your protest is useless. You think you are somehow entitled to results? Yes, your protest is worthless, a pantomime. Protest isn't a ritual you perform - a raindance that you do - and then the gods respond with whatever it is you asked for. Protest compels results - it's embracing that you are the agent, you are the power, you make it happen; the enemy will give you nothing. If you don't understand that, if you aren't planning for it, if you have no strategy that will compel victory, then you're just entitled. (I think the latter is the problem with most of the protests now - they're doing raindances.)

And you go around telling people how hopeless it is? Have you ever accomplished anything? Has anyone who has ever said those things? People saying those things are the first problem - if they were on my team, I'd tell them to never say that again or simply don't come back.

Regardless, the protests have altered behavior, including by European leaders and by the most powerful person in the world (POTUS) and a candidate for that office (Harris). They may cost Harris the election by denying her enough votes in Michigan. And though nobody can say for sure, they arguably have altered the Israeli government's behavior, though the protestors will certainly and understandably say, not nearly enough.

Finally, to evaluate protest, compare it to the alternative: silence. Imagine horrors went on and society responded with silence. Imagine how demoralizing that would be to the ordinary person, who does have a moral conscience. Imagine how crushing to public morality if nobody said anything. Protestors are essential.

[0] There was some research, I think from 10-20 years ago, that showed that it succeeds at a high rate. But I don't recall what kind of protest, etc., so I hope someone else knows about it.

Re: Code that helped end Apartheid

#66

Post by mmooss »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #64
GordonS wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Millions protested the Vietnam war. Many millions more protested the Iraq war. Millions upon millions have protested against Israel's genocide of the Palestinian people for an entire year. Now those same people also protest against Israel's invasion of Lebanon. It has been ineffective. We've seen peaceful protestors smeared, and beaten and harassed by the police. We've seen counter terror laws abused to smear and arr…

We're also entering our third generation of peaceful protest against climate change with no effects whatsoever. Protest movements are only effective when they present a viable alternative to a more radical movement with a will to violence at their flank. We saw this clearly in the indian independence & american civil rights movements, and the fall of apartheid. Iraq war and climate movement are what you get without t…

What's incredible is not only the vast disinformation on other issues, but their ability to get into the heads of even the protestors and have them parroting obvious nonsense (if you think or look at the evidence). The right doesn't have to lift a finger, make an argument, face any political struggle, because their opponents all lay down their (peaceful, political) arms and quit on their own!

You are your opponents' dream. They couldn't write a better script for you - quitting and self-defeating, at the same time!

Re: Code that helped end Apartheid

#67

Post by giraffe_lady »

mmooss wrote: post #66
giraffe_lady wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're also entering our third generation of peaceful protest against climate change with no effects whatsoever. Protest movements are only effective when they present a viable alternative to a more radical movement with a will to violence at their flank. We saw this clearly in the indian independence & american civil rights movements, and the fall of apartheid. Iraq war and climate movement are what you get without t…

What's incredible is not only the vast disinformation on other issues, but their ability to get into the heads of even the protestors and have them parroting obvious nonsense (if you think or look at the evidence). The right doesn't have to lift a finger, make an argument, face any political struggle, because their opponents all lay down their (peaceful, political) arms and quit on their own! You are your opponents'…

If you read this as me giving up you might want to skim it again.

Re: Code that helped end Apartheid

#68

Post by mmooss »

tdeck wrote: post #63
mmooss wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Protests and petitions are completely ineffective They have been effective for millenia, even before democracy. The only thing ineffective now is people saying so. With all the evidence in the world that protest works, people bizarrely disarm themselves. The targets of the protests take great pains to convince you of it; that should tell you something. They'll bluff until they lose.

I think this greatly depends on rhe type of protest, specifically whether it threatens the ruling class's ability to make a profit or to govern. In recent centuries liberal governments have gotten better at channeling discontent into forms of protest that are less consequential and more performative.

The world would be better off if all the defeatists followed their own advice and did something else with their lives, and left the political activities to a new generation with fight and committment and passion in them, people with leadership and agency.

If people are going to quit, then quit! Stop coming to the meeting and talking about you've quit!

Re: Code that helped end Apartheid

#69

Post by mmooss »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #67
mmooss wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's incredible is not only the vast disinformation on other issues, but their ability to get into the heads of even the protestors and have them parroting obvious nonsense (if you think or look at the evidence). The right doesn't have to lift a finger, make an argument, face any political struggle, because their opponents all lay down their (peaceful, political) arms and quit on their own! You are your opponents'…

If you read this as me giving up you might want to skim it again.

You've given up on peaceful protest and are embracing radicalized, violent protest, which is self-defeating. Again, your enemies love you - you're doing exactly what they hope.
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