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Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

cosmowenman.substack.com

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Re: Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

#111
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no supreme court in France, this is a gross mistranslation of "Court de Cassation", which is where you bring your case after you have lost your appeal, and is the last court where you can try to argue your point.

You’ve just described precisely what a supreme court is. This is definitely the supreme court of France.

No, it's different in many many ways. And there are not just one, but four courts of last resort in France:

- Cour de Cassation, for civil matters

- Conseil d'État, for matters regarding the administration / the State

- Tribunal des Conflits: tasked with deciding who's right when the Cour de Cassation and the Conseil d'État disagree

- Conseil Constitutionnel: issues rulings about the constitutionality of laws, both new (before they become law) and existing ones (QPC)

This doesn't stop here however; there are two upper courts in the European Union, than can invalidate decisions issued by national courts:

- Court of Justice (in Luxembourg)

- Court of Human Rights (in Strasbourg)

- - -

Edit: Don't you love the idea of "Tribunal des Conflits"? The original idea was that the State could not be brought to court, its decisions being made by "the people" who is the absolute sovereign.

Then France gradually accepted the idea that State's decision could be challenged, and created a whole different judicial system, the "justice administrative". It took a looong time: from 1800 to... 1980. A much simpler approach could have been to let people try their case against the State before the existing courts, but no... much better to build another system with its own rules, its own judges, etc.

An inevitable consequence of having two different systems is that they sometimes disagree. (Another reason why it would have been so much simpler to just have one system.) Since the two systems are sometimes at odds with one another, we created... a third system! This was in 1872, so quite early in the process.

This Tribunal des Conflits is a referee of sorts whose only job is to stop the fights between the two justice systems. I think that's great and tells a lot about the French way of solving problems: just add a new bureaucratic authority on top of all existing ones.

Re: Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

#112
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no supreme court in France, this is a gross mistranslation of "Court de Cassation", which is where you bring your case after you have lost your appeal, and is the last court where you can try to argue your point.

Same thing, different name.

Absolutely not.

Re: Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

#113

> The court ruled that the museum’s revenue, business model, and supposed threats from competition and counterfeiting are irrelevant to the public’s right to access its scans, a dramatic rejection of the museum’s position It would have helped the museum and government ministry if this had been clear before the government-funded scanning program was started. (Maybe it was, I don't know.) I was initially sympathetic to…

> In an ironic development, the judges specifically reasoned against musée Rodin’s trade secrecy claim by citing its 3D digitization funding applications to the Ministry of Culture, in which the museum stipulated its commitment to publishing its scans. The museum had attempted to hide these funding applications from us and the court, telling the court they did not exist.

Re: Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would they lie about it then? These museums are subsidized by tax payers, not only just local money but often with additional EU funding as well. The scans were paid for by the public. This seems comically evil for no apparent reason.

> Why would they lie about it then? T Because among copyright/IP maximalists, the whole point is that they own an idea or a picture or a look or a fashion and deserve to keep it to themselves forever. It's not a rational attitude, but it's a real one and unfortunately rather common.

And what is the alternative? How do we get it applied to software copyrights?

Re: Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

#115
There has to be a point where seeing things in the virtual world becomes "good enough" that we won't fly thousands of miles to do it.

When I see some of the virtual reconstructions of Ancient Rome or Pompeii, I wonder if the real thing will be of less interest than the reconstituted, repaired one.

I think this is normal - there are now billions of people in the world and only so much "great art". I was in a huge crowd looking at the Mona Lisa. There was nothing magical about the experience. I'd rather have my own copy or put my VR glasses on and enjoy it in, say, the house where it was first displayed.

I can see museums fearing the loss of visitors or at least fearing that someone else will make billions out of virtualising it and they won't. I mean, search engines make billions out of the knowledge other people built over centuries. AI takes open source information and code and makes billions selling the embodied knowledge that was given away for free. It's not as if corporations aren't happy to rape the commons and call themselves heroes for doing it.

This isn't a good reason for the museum's attitude but I don't look to the future free exploitation of public information with unalloyed optimism.

Re: Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

#116
post #81

I love this and applaud it. It's also very timely: next week I have arriving a portable 3D scanner (an Einstar Vega) precisely because as a hobbyist sculptor the only way I can analyze these works to inform my practice is to go to galleries and scan the works myself (sometimes very surreptitiously!). It's crazy that I need to buy a £2000 piece of equipment and produce have a tonne of CO2 just to be able to look at a…

Photogrammetry is well established and you can do that with any camera and a few hours of cpu time.

Photogrammetry is great with textured, consistently lit, opaque objects.

Blank white plaster, less so. You really want some kind of microtexture to grab on to for it to be anywhere close to a structured light scanner. That may mean you want a macro lens and a thousand exposures because you're grabbing on to microscopic surface roughness or dust. Not necessarily easy to do surreptitiously.

Re: Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

#117

> The court ruled that the museum’s revenue, business model, and supposed threats from competition and counterfeiting are irrelevant to the public’s right to access its scans, a dramatic rejection of the museum’s position It would have helped the museum and government ministry if this had been clear before the government-funded scanning program was started. (Maybe it was, I don't know.) I was initially sympathetic to…

This same person fought for years to get the Berlin Egyptian museum to release 3D scans of the famous Nefertiti bust. The museum also claimed it would undermine its revenue streams through the gift shop, but as the case progressed, that turned out to be very misleading - the museum had made less than 5000 EUR over ten years from 3D scans. https://reason.com/2019/11/13/a-german-museum-tried-to-hide-...

They’re afraid of losing out on the revenue from selling replicas, etc. which is probably a very reasonable fear given that the guy filing suit and writing this blog post runs a company that creates replica artwork?

Re: Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

#118
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve just described precisely what a supreme court is. This is definitely the supreme court of France.

No, it's different in many many ways. And there are not just one, but four courts of last resort in France: - Cour de Cassation, for civil matters - Conseil d'État, for matters regarding the administration / the State - Tribunal des Conflits: tasked with deciding who's right when the Cour de Cassation and the Conseil d'État disagree - Conseil Constitutionnel: issues rulings about the constitutionality of laws, both n…

If it's the final court for civil matters in France I would argue it's still a supreme court.

Re: Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

#119

I love the idea of preserving history through 3D scans. When I learned about Gobekli Tepe a few years ago it caught my heart, and since then I've been wishing that someone would produce a detailed 3D scan of the site. Does anyone know if there's any company, group, or non-profits trying to make this happen for key historical landmarks? Most people are unlikely to be able to visit such locations, and they probably can…

Not a non-profit but Ubisoft has been doing significant 3D scanning and sharing (unsure under what license) for their Assassins Creed franchise: https://mocapsolutions.com/blogs/news/assassin-s-creed-unity...

I haven’t played all the games but the recent ones I tried had a historical tour mode where you get to explore day-in-the-life of an Ancient Greek city or Viking village, with people going about their routines working, trading, farming, gathering. With VR it would be the closest thing to time travel we currently have.

And they do have many of the historical landmarks in pretty stunning detail, with drapes and paintings of what it most probably looked like back then.

Re: Secret 3D scans in the French Supreme Court

#120
post #115

There has to be a point where seeing things in the virtual world becomes "good enough" that we won't fly thousands of miles to do it. When I see some of the virtual reconstructions of Ancient Rome or Pompeii, I wonder if the real thing will be of less interest than the reconstituted, repaired one. I think this is normal - there are now billions of people in the world and only so much "great art". I was in a huge crow…

> There has to be a point where seeing things in the virtual world becomes "good enough" that we won't fly thousands of miles to do it.

For certain things, I could see that. But for many things I go see, it's being there that is part of the point. Knowing that I'm seeing or touching the actual thing the artist saw and touched, or standing in a place where the builders worked build it, etc. Seeing a perfect representation misses that.

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