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Why does everyone run ancient Postgres versions?

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Re: Why does everyone run ancient Postgres versions?

#21

Post by jes5199 »

stickfigure wrote: post #10
api wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always wondered why Postgres is so insanely popular. I mean it has some nice things like very powerful support for a very comprehensive subset of SQL functionality, but most apps don't need all that. It really feels like early 1990s vintage Unix software. It's clunky and arcane and it's hard to feel confident doing anything complex with it.

What's the alternative? MySQL? No transactional DDL, immediate fail.

I worked for a company that migrated from mysql to postgres, but then got big enough they wanted to hire fulltime database experts and ended up migrating back to mysql because it was easier to find talent

Re: Why does everyone run ancient Postgres versions?

#22

Post by esperent »

roenxi wrote: post #3

I've always found it fascinating that there is a vocal contingent at HN that seems to legitimately hate advertising. But then an article like this turns up that is obvious advertising and is also a good article - we get a nice summary of what the major performance features over different postgres versions are, and some interesting case studies (I'd never even heard of the NOT VALID option although apparently it is no…

This is something I've heard called "permission marketing". The idea is that you show genuinely useful ads to only the few people who will benefit from them, rather than indiscriminately blasting millions of innocent bystanders. Then these few people will actually welcome your marketing efforts.

The classic example is advertising a new improved fishing reel in a fishing magazine. People buy the magazine (well, 20 years ago they did) because they want to know about things like new improved fishing reels.

It's a world away from the overwhelming avalanche of bullshit that is modern advertising/spam. There's nothing at all weird about hating advertising in general but being ok with permission marketing.

If you follow this idea further you'll find that very few people, even the most vocal, genuinely hate advertising. We all want to know about useful products and services. We just don't want to see a million ads a day for Apple, Coke, Pepsi, Nike, erectile dysfunction, fake single women in your area, Nigerian princes...

Because when it reaches a certain scale, and when too many psychological tricks are being played, and everything is always, BRIGHT, BIG, hyper-sexualized, when you can't walk down any street, watch anything, read anything, without seeing people richer, smarter, younger, sexier, happier than you, it goes far beyond just advertising. It's brainwashing. It has to stop because it's extremely unhealthy for our societies, our mental health, our children.

Re: Why does everyone run ancient Postgres versions?

#23

Post by threeseed »

justin_oaks wrote: post #16
api wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always wondered why Postgres is so insanely popular. I mean it has some nice things like very powerful support for a very comprehensive subset of SQL functionality, but most apps don't need all that. It really feels like early 1990s vintage Unix software. It's clunky and arcane and it's hard to feel confident doing anything complex with it.

> It really feels like early 1990s vintage Unix software. It's clunky and arcane and it's hard to feel confident doing anything complex with it. How software "feels" is subjective. Can you be more specific?

The command line experience is old school style i.e. to show tables.

  \c database
  \dt
Versus:

  use database
  show tables

Re: Why does everyone run ancient Postgres versions?

#24

Post by tpmoney »

api wrote: post #9
paulryanrogers wrote: post #2

Upgrades are hard. There was no replication in the before times. The original block-level replication didn't work among different major versions. Slony was a painful workaround based on triggers that amplified writes. Newer PostgreSQL versions are better. Yet still not quite as robust or easy as MySQL. At a certain scale even MySQL upgrades can be painful. At least when you cannot spare more than a few minutes of dow…

I've always wondered why Postgres is so insanely popular. I mean it has some nice things like very powerful support for a very comprehensive subset of SQL functionality, but most apps don't need all that. It really feels like early 1990s vintage Unix software. It's clunky and arcane and it's hard to feel confident doing anything complex with it.

> I've always wondered why Postgres is so insanely popular.

In no particular order, my preference for postgres is driven by:

  * Date / time functions that don't suck
  * UTF-8 is really UTF-8
  * 99% of a backup can be done live with nothing more than rsyncing the data directory and the WAL files
  * Really comprehensive documentation
  * LTREE and fuzzy string match extensions
  * Familiarity from using it for years
MySQL/Maria I'm sure is fine, but it's one of hose things where it's just different enough and I haven't encountered a compelling use case for changing my preference.

Re: Why does everyone run ancient Postgres versions?

#25

Post by yen223 »

Databases tend to be "stickier" than other parts of any large software system. Largely because database migrations are costly. You can't just tear down an old database and rebuild a new one, you have to figure out how to move all that data across too.

The consequence is that things in database-land tends to move slower than other types of software. This I think is the major reason why we still use SQL.

Re: Why does everyone run ancient Postgres versions?

#26

Post by dventimi »

threeseed wrote: post #23
justin_oaks wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It really feels like early 1990s vintage Unix software. It's clunky and arcane and it's hard to feel confident doing anything complex with it. How software "feels" is subjective. Can you be more specific?

The command line experience is old school style i.e. to show tables. \c database \dt Versus: use database show tables

That's psql.

Re: Why does everyone run ancient Postgres versions?

#27

Post by fhdsgbbcaA »

tpmoney wrote: post #24
api wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always wondered why Postgres is so insanely popular. I mean it has some nice things like very powerful support for a very comprehensive subset of SQL functionality, but most apps don't need all that. It really feels like early 1990s vintage Unix software. It's clunky and arcane and it's hard to feel confident doing anything complex with it.

> I've always wondered why Postgres is so insanely popular. In no particular order, my preference for postgres is driven by: * Date / time functions that don't suck * UTF-8 is really UTF-8 * 99% of a backup can be done live with nothing more than rsyncing the data directory and the WAL files * Really comprehensive documentation * LTREE and fuzzy string match extensions * Familiarity from using it for years MySQL/Mari…

UTF-8 is what made me switch. It’s insane MySQL has something called UTF-8 that isn't really UTF-8, but do have a type UTF8MB4 that actually is correct. This means if you use UFT-8 in MySQL, you can’t use emoji for example.

Re: Why does everyone run ancient Postgres versions?

#28

Post by fhdsgbbcaA »

threeseed wrote: post #23
justin_oaks wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It really feels like early 1990s vintage Unix software. It's clunky and arcane and it's hard to feel confident doing anything complex with it. How software "feels" is subjective. Can you be more specific?

The command line experience is old school style i.e. to show tables. \c database \dt Versus: use database show tables

It’s also faster to type.

Re: Why does everyone run ancient Postgres versions?

#29

Post by jart »

yen223 wrote: post #25

Databases tend to be "stickier" than other parts of any large software system. Largely because database migrations are costly. You can't just tear down an old database and rebuild a new one, you have to figure out how to move all that data across too. The consequence is that things in database-land tends to move slower than other types of software. This I think is the major reason why we still use SQL.

Have postgres updates actually been requiring users do migrations? Or is this just a fear that something will go wrong?

Re: Why does everyone run ancient Postgres versions?

#30

Post by natmaka »

justin_oaks wrote: post #19

My upgrade policy for everything: Significant security vulnerability? Upgrade Feature you need? Upgrade All other reasons: Don't upgrade. Upgrading takes effort and it is risky. The benefits must be worth the risks.

Suggestion: add "End of life (no more maintenance for this version)? Upgrade"
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