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FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

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Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem here is that the banks make the rules and they like rules that allow them to covertly screw everyone. What you really want is a system where a customer who issues a chargeback that isn't disputed gets the money back, but the merchant also doesn't get a chargeback fee because there is no dispute. And then if there is a dispute (and the customer still wants to do the chargeback), the chargeback fee is…

> you do a chargeback, the merchant gets … a chargeback fee … But the merchants respond by banning customers who do this If I've had to do a chargeback, I'm highly unlikely to want to spend further money with that company in future, so they can "ban" me all they like.

For me, I still buy games on Steam because my kids want them (I just try hard to find them elsewhere first). Steam just make it hard for me to do that, which is insane when the root of preventing me is a couple of quid they refused to refund when they sold a game they knew was broken.

Of course they don't care about that, it's the £10s across millions of customers that they possibly retain unlawfully that makes it worthwhile.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#742
post #50

My workaround to this has been to email the company telling them I want to cancel. Once I either don't get a reply, or get a reply saying "just call us and we'll cancel!", I dispute the next charge with American Express and have the email record of trying to cancel. I believe they also offer a "stop allowing charges by this merchant" feature that cuts off future charges.

Although in practice I don't think it will be an issue, in theory issuing a chargeback on your credit card does not release you from any financial obligations you agreed to with a contract. And if that contract specifies that you must "call to cancel" I don't think "I emailed" will hold up in court (but IANAL). Of course with this FCC ruling that could very well not be the case, but in any case always be wary of issu…

I've had to do this a few times for various reasons and got cancellation confirmations from the companies after the chargeback happened.

Obviously, this would be much different putting a $1,000+ business SaaS subscription on a credit card vs. a $10/month consumer product.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your "innovation" is at risk from consumer protection regulations I question whether it's a good innovation.

There are many examples of successful companies that fall into that category. Sometimes an innovation needs critical mass to work - social networks for example. LinkedIn famously got big by being extremely aggressive on how they mined your contacts. You'd get sued to the moon and back in the EU for this behaviour. LinkedIn is big now, it has established itself and no longer needs to be that aggressive. Any European p…

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Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you advocating for? A government credit card or something like that?

Electronic money accounts and ability to transfer money. People shouldn’t need to deposit their money at a bank or non governmental entity. For example, USPS could provide a constitutionally protected, inalienable right (not even if you go to prison) to an electronic money account, and you can send and receive via an email address or phone number. USPS because there are already physical USPS offices all over the coun…

There's precident for this. The USPS ran one of the biggest savings banks in the country back when it was part of the US Government. That all ended in the 1960s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Postal_Savings_S...

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#745
post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I go one step further and for the lists which I don't remember subscribing to, I never click "Unsubscribe" - it's "Spam" right away.

Works great except for the gas company, electric and water company, phone company, airlines, cloud provider, os provider, and everyone else that mixes the 5% of legit business that you can’t afford to ignore or miss with the 95% of marketing content that you want to get rid of. Since it’s usually opaque how “mark as spam” and “block” actually works, and since the origin of the mailing lists can be reconfigured any ti…

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Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't come out as part of sign up, they came out for install, which is a separate phase. You signed up on the phone or online. They don't need to remove hardware from your house to turn it off.

I think you are missing my point here. Is there a requirement that a signup flow is a single process that you do all at once? What if they just moved the last contract you had to sign to something that you clicked on the technicians phone after they set everything up? I get that it is part of the install process and we think of it as a different phase. But in reality how much of a diasctintion is that really? I am tr…

> What if they just moved the last contract you had to sign to something that you clicked on the technicians phone after they set everything up?

That doesn't side step this - if you sign up in person they have to provide a telephone or online option to cancel that is just as easy as it was to sign up.

Now you'll need to return the hardware if you're using Comcast's hardware. Nothing changes there.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#748

When people try and say that regulating stuff like this is impossible, I often think about how unreasonably great the regulations around “Unsubscribe” links in emails are. There really seems to be no loophole or workaround despite there being huge incentive for there to be one. Every time I click an “Unsubscribe” link in an email (it seems like they’re forced to say “Unsubscribe” and not use weasel words to hide the…

> I often think about how unreasonably great the regulations around “Unsubscribe” links in emails are.

While I generally agree with your opinion, the case is that bad actors are using the unsubscribe link to identify real email addresses. The vast majority of people do not match what I imagine might be the average HN tech-savvy audience.

They get an email they don't want and click on "Unsubscribe" to get rid of it. What they don't know is that they have been added to a database of "live" emails to be sold and reused for all sorts of purposes from that point forward.

In other words, as is the case for many laws, they keep honest people honest. You do not control criminals with laws until the result of the law is that they end-up in prison (or whatever the appropriate punishment might be).

I ran an experiment during the last presidential election (US). I used two separate throw-away emails to subscribe to updates from both the Republican and Democratic parties. I used these emails directly on the main organization pages. I also setup filters to sort all incoming emails into two separate folders.

A year later I deleted both email accounts and the tens of thousands of messages on both folders. It was an interesting game of whack-a-mole. Clicking on "unsubscribe" had no real effect. Both parties passed this email to, it seemed, everyone except for the local school janitor. It was nothing less than insane. There was no effective way to make it stop. I unsubscribed from both main organizations. That did nothing at all.

My conclusion was that, while "Unsubscribe" sounds good and looks useful, it only works with non-criminal organizations (sorry, I consider political parties to be at the threshold of being criminal organizations). It's like a lock on a door, or, to use a more provocative example, a gun. The laws surrounding these things only get respect from honest law-abiding people. A criminal will gladly take a crowbar to your door-lock and break into your home, or use a gun to do the same or worse.

Going back to unsolicited emails (and by extension SMS), not sure how we fix this in real terms. It's a really difficult problem.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#749

Does anybody have insight into the dissenting opinion. I skimmed through it and it just looked like the commissioner was saying "this is overreach, partisan and congress should do this". Am I missing something?

Ben Thompson tried to make this case in various places when Amazon was sued by the FTC. Roughly “businesses should be able to make a case for why you should still be a subscriber”.

I disagree. Fuck subscriptions, they’re predatory.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#750

Does anybody have insight into the dissenting opinion. I skimmed through it and it just looked like the commissioner was saying "this is overreach, partisan and congress should do this". Am I missing something?

Just for fun, I asked Claude for a dissenting opinion > # Dissenting Opinion on FTC's Click-to-Cancel Rule

While the FTC's intention to protect consumers is commendable, this new "click-to-cancel" rule may have unintended consequences that could harm both businesses and consumers. Here are some key points of dissent:

1. *Overreach of Regulatory Authority*: The FTC's broad application of this rule to "almost all negative option programs in any media" may exceed its statutory authority. This sweeping approach could face legal challenges.

2. *Increased Costs for Businesses*: Implementing new cancellation systems and processes could be costly, especially for small businesses. These costs may ultimately be passed on to consumers in the form of higher prices.

3. *Potential for Increased Fraud*: Making cancellation too easy might inadvertently increase the risk of unauthorized cancellations by bad actors, leading to service disruptions for legitimate subscribers.

4. *Loss of Customer Retention Opportunities*: By prohibiting businesses from discussing plan modifications or reasons to keep existing agreements during cancellation, the rule may deprive consumers of potentially beneficial alternatives or information.

5. *Inconsistency with Other Industries*: The rule may create an uneven playing field, as some industries (like telecommunications or utilities) often have different cancellation processes due to the nature of their services.

6. *Consumer Responsibility*: The rule may unfairly shift the burden of subscription management entirely onto businesses, potentially reducing consumer responsibility and awareness.

7. *Innovation Stifling*: Strict regulations on subscription models could discourage innovation in service offerings and pricing structures that might benefit consumers.

8. *Compliance Challenges*: The 180-day implementation period may not be sufficient for all businesses to comply, especially given the broad scope of the rule.

While consumer protection is crucial, a more balanced approach that considers the needs of both consumers and businesses might be more effective. The FTC should consider a more nuanced rule that addresses specific abusive practices rather than imposing broad restrictions on all negative option programs.

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