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Why birds do not fall while sleeping

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141–150 of 191 posts

Re: Why birds do not fall while sleeping

#141

When I was younger, I was fascinated by evolution, especially the intricacies of how things just work. This fascination also explains why many people believe in the intelligent design theory. However, witnessing the rapid evolution of AI with just a few hundred GPUs, enough data, and power, I no longer wonder what a billion years of feedback loops and randomness can achieve.

AFAIK key insight into evolution is not randomness but rather sheer amount of compute. Specifically, evolution is a massively parallel flood algorithm that will try every single mutation. Barely any of them will have positive impact on organism fitness, but some will.

I remember early "computer recreations" of life that seemed to suggest that unbounded randomness (mutation) was, as you mention, more often bad than good. Sexual reproduction, where genes are swapped (perhaps at random?) got you to the head of the class much, much quicker.

Re: Why birds do not fall while sleeping

#142
post #72

When I was younger, I was fascinated by evolution, especially the intricacies of how things just work. This fascination also explains why many people believe in the intelligent design theory. However, witnessing the rapid evolution of AI with just a few hundred GPUs, enough data, and power, I no longer wonder what a billion years of feedback loops and randomness can achieve.

The fascination with “intelligent design” is cherry-picking. The is no shortage of “unintelligent design” in the natural world. Take humans, for example. You can block your trachea and die through the simple act of eating. An intelligent (and omniscient) designer could have avoided that by better designing our overall our overall structure. Or take the fact or ear bones are modified jaw bones. Or if you believe in in…

Well I can crash my bicycle going downhill and neglecting to use the brakes, this doesn't mean it wasn't intelligently designed.

Design is all about tradeoffs.

Re: Why birds do not fall while sleeping

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as we can still breathe and digest food while sleeping!

We can even adjust our sleeping position while sleeping, possibly to avoid bedsores? But perhaps avoiding falling requires more processing power.

One can make an argument we are conscious at some level when sleeping. We must be. How else would one wake up immediately when one's partner calls ones name, and sleep through cats screeming to be let out during the night :-)

Re: Why birds do not fall while sleeping

#144
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It’s advocacies argue that god created humans a mere 10k years or so ago". This is false. There are plenty of ID advocates that believe in a scientific timeline, albeit, just with some intelligent guidance.

Which is conveniently unverifiable.

And it would be a massively counter intuitive finding (if ID turned out to be anything but fantasy) because based on genetics and morphological lineage it looks exactly like a system/process that fits unguided evolution through selective pressure feedback loops.

Re: Why birds do not fall while sleeping

#145
post #77

This article doesn't even try to address what I feel is the deeper and more interesting question (but probably one that can't be answered): Why is it that horses, cows, giraffes and birds have all had to come up with a purely passive solution of "locking" themselves in place, either via their joints (for the four-legged), or via the tendon mechanism described here for birds? I.e. why wasn't in simpler in evolutionary…

Also, why didn't any animal evolve a way to avoid sleep completely?

We don't know exactly why nature can't do otherwise, but any complex brain has to sleep.

Some animals, mainly sharks which can't stop or they would be asphyxied, deal with that by having kind of 2 brains which are never both sleeping at the same time.

Re: Why birds do not fall while sleeping

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, why didn't any animal evolve a way to avoid sleep completely?

We don't know exactly why nature can't do otherwise, but any complex brain has to sleep. Some animals, mainly sharks which can't stop or they would be asphyxied, deal with that by having kind of 2 brains which are never both sleeping at the same time.

It would be so useful if one half could sleep, and then the other half, so you never have to be truly sleep

Re: Why birds do not fall while sleeping

#147
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you know that our trachea is not an optimal design when you take into account all the tradeoffs? Because if we were designed from scratch we could have been designed in any optimal shape or form. > You're surrounded by items created by intelligent design (us) and all of them have flaws, reused parts and tend to break. Obviously you wouldn't argue based on this that they weren't designed by intelligent beings…

Flaws is a wrong way to put these things you notice. Would a perfectly and optimally designed being get no diseases? won't die? won't fall?

I think a perfectly designed being would not require killing to live, would run on sunlight or other direct power sources and be steady state or mostly steady state.

If we ever make silicone man that runs on sunlight then I'll say, "ah, this looks like a being created by a moral intelligent designer".

It's going to be pretty revealing when a creature with such "lowborne morals" as ourselves creates a being that can function and operate without the explicit need to kill something every ~7 days to survive.

Re: Why birds do not fall while sleeping

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, why didn't any animal evolve a way to avoid sleep completely?

Cnidarians and flatworms don't have a CNS and sponges don't have nerve tissue at all. I would think that means they don't do anything on a daily cycle that would match what we commonly call sleep. I'd also wonder about creatures inhabiting extremely sparse environments like deep caves and undersea trenches, that spend most of their lives dormant and only seem to do anything at all when food happens to come around, wh…

Flatworms, such as planaria, absolutely sleep and have a daily rhythm of increased and decreased activity. Cnidarians, such as hydra or the cassiopea jellyfish, sleep as well. Flatworms have a CNS and a bilobed brain, though cnidarians do not. My wife worked extensively in a planaria lab (one mentioned in citation below, coincidentally) before getting her PhD. Sponges (which lack any neurons at all) have a diurnal rhythm and the sleep research field considers it an open question whether they sleep, with one opined hypothesis being that sleep evolved for gut regulation before it was adapted for nervous regulation. Some go so far as to suggest the possibility that bacteria, algae, and plants sleep.

Neurotransmitters of sleep and wakefulness in flatworms https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9216492/

"Sleep is a prominent behavioral and biochemical state observed in all animals studied, including platyhelminth flatworms."

"Dopamine and histamine decreased the time spent inactive and increased distance traveled, consistent with their wake-promoting effect in vertebrates and fruit flies; pyrilamine increased restfulness and GABA showed a nonsignificant trend towards promoting restfulness in a dose-dependent manner, in agreement with their sleep-inducing effect in vertebrates, fruit flies, and Hydra."

Persistence of Nocturnality in Decapitated and Bisected Flatworms https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10278384/

"Here, we demonstrate that intact flatworms were predominantly active at night, with peaks in activity seen in the hours after lights-off and before lights-on. While decapitated and tailless flatworms could still move, both were less active than the original animal, and both segments retained a nocturnal lifestyle. Furthermore, decapitated flatworms, once regenerated, again showed a U-shaped pattern of nocturnal activity reminiscent of the two night-time peaks seen in the original animal. These results could be used to further investigate how regeneration may affect motor control and motor output, or to further investigate the presence of a clock in the flatworm brain."

"Nocturnal by nature, their rhythm persists even in the absence of photoperiodic cues, suggestive of an endogenous circadian clock (Omond et al., 2017). Even more interestingly, despite being closely related to other lophotrochozoans, that is, annelid (segmented) worms and mollusks (Tessmar-Raible, 2003), flatworms have secondarily lost their circulatory and respiratory systems, and endocrine glands. What remains is (1) a centralized nervous system, complete with bilobed brain (Roberts-Galbraith and Newmark, 2015); (2) a need for sleep that is regulated by sleep-wake history and induced by the evolutionarily conserved neurotransmitter gamma-aminobutyric acid, or GABA;"

A sleep-like state in Hydra unravels conserved sleep mechanisms during the evolutionary development of the central nervous system https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abb9415

"Hydra sleep was shaped by homeostasis and necessary for cell proliferation, but it lacked free-running circadian rhythms. Instead, we detected 4-hour rhythms that might be generated by ultradian oscillators underlying Hydra sleep. Microarray analysis in sleep-deprived Hydra revealed sleep-dependent expression of 212 genes, including cGMP-dependent protein kinase 1 (PRKG1) and ornithine aminotransferase. Sleep-promoting effects of melatonin, GABA, and PRKG1 were conserved in Hydra. However, arousing dopamine unexpectedly induced Hydra sleep. Opposing effects of ornithine metabolism on sleep were also evident between Hydra and Drosophila, suggesting the evolutionary switch of their sleep-regulatory functions. Thus, sleep-relevant physiology and sleep-regulatory components may have already been acquired at molecular levels in a brain-less metazoan phylum and reprogrammed accordingly."

The Jellyfish Cassiopea Exhibits a Sleep-like State https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(17)...

"In Cnidaria, neurons are organized into a non-centralized radially symmetric nerve net [11, 13, 15–17] that nevertheless shares fundamental properties with the vertebrate nervous system: action potentials, synaptic transmission, neuropeptides, and neurotransmitters [15–20]. It was reported that cnidarian soft corals [21] and box jellyfish [22, 23] exhibit periods of quiescence, a pre-requisite for sleep-like states, prompting us to ask whether sleep is present in Cnidaria. Within Cnidaria, the upside-down jellyfish Cassiopea spp. displays a quantifiable pulsing behavior, allowing us to perform long-term behavioral tracking. Monitoring of Cassiopea pulsing activity for consecutive days and nights revealed behavioral quiescence at night that is rapidly reversible, as well as a delayed response to stimulation in the quiescent state. When deprived of nighttime quiescence, Cassiopea exhibited decreased activity and reduced responsiveness to a sensory stimulus during the subsequent day, consistent with homeostatic regulation of the quiescent state. Together, these results indicate that Cassiopea has a sleep-like state, supporting the hypothesis that sleep arose early in the metazoan lineage, prior to the emergence of a centralized nervous system."

OPINION - Exploring phylogeny to find the function of sleep https://www.nature.com/articles/s41583-018-0098-9

"Indeed, it is interesting to consider sleep in animals that lack neurons altogether, such as sponges and the Placozoan species Trichoplax adhaerens. T. adhaerens have gland cells that are likely to contain and secrete neuropeptides91. Despite lacking neurons and muscle, T. adhaerens sense and respond to their environment and move and eat via the coordinated action of their cilia92,93,94. Sponges also lack muscles and neurons but carry genes encoding synaptic scaffold proteins95, can contract coordinately with a diurnal rhythm96 and can respond to their environment97. Evidence that Placozoa spp. or Porifera spp. have a sleep state would demonstrate that sleep is not just for organisms with neurons and would also suggest that non-neuronal cells can organize sleep behaviour." "Many plants synthesize melatonin99, although its function in plants is not elucidated100. Cassiopea jellyfish species live in a symbiotic relationship with single-cell photosynthetic algae, which provide carbohydrate fuel to these jellyfish. Do these algae also ‘sleep’ at night when photosynthetic activity is absent? Mammals are colonized with intestinal microbiota, the composition of which changes with sleep deprivation101. Should these microorganisms be considered to be sleepers? If, at its core, sleep were serving a metabolic function (see below), it is not inconceivable that plants, algae and single-cell prokaryotes will also ultimately be considered to sleep."

Re: Why birds do not fall while sleeping

#149
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sleep has crucial role in survival and well-being

Yeah but what role? 24h always at least a bit running brain has also crucial role in survival. I get some form of maintenance is needed, but 8h every day seems like an overkill for very significant disadvantages. Many other mammals require significantly less sleep.

Could it be that 8h is a "modern" sleep pattern? You can also take several shorter naps throughout the day (polyphasic sleep pattern).

But to be honest, without light there isn't much humans can do at night.

Re: Why birds do not fall while sleeping

#150

When I was younger, I was fascinated by evolution, especially the intricacies of how things just work. This fascination also explains why many people believe in the intelligent design theory. However, witnessing the rapid evolution of AI with just a few hundred GPUs, enough data, and power, I no longer wonder what a billion years of feedback loops and randomness can achieve.

All of the data that has gone into AI has been intelligently created. Also, there are plenty of intelligent people cleaning the test data and guiding its training. That is basically the entire premise of intelligent design. Not that there is no evolution, but that it is a guided process.

Right, genetic and morphological lineage data among hominidae and other families look exactly like you'd expect from unguided mutation. So any intelligent hand involved would have to be a real trickster to put so much effort into making the data look the way it does, or just shouldn't have bothered because it seems we end up at the same place regardless.
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