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FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

ftc.gov

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Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#571

Post by Ensorceled »

llm_nerd wrote: post #366
TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #96

It would be great to see the FTC go against predatory subscription services like Adobe. I'm fuzzy on the exact details, but I think they promoted a yearly subscription that was meant to look like a monthly subscription, where if you cancelled early they would charge you an exorbitant cancellation fee. I'm not sure how these new rules affect them. One recent idea I've had is that many online subscription services shou…

While the Adobe thing is the common punching bag, I'm going to play devil's advocate and say that people probably need to either be more honest, or need to pay more attention. When you subscribe there are three prices given- Monthly, Annual paid monthly, and Annual prepaid. The Annual paid monthly very clearly indicates that there is a fee if you cancel after 14 days. The annual paid monthly is some 33% less expensiv…

> I'm going to play devil's advocate and say that people probably need to either be more honest, or need to pay more attention.

Neither the Devil nor Adobe need an advocate, but maybe you could help Adobe out with the Justice Department law suit around subscription dark patterns[1]? That signup page you took a screen shot of is the current version, older ones had more dark patterns and definitely were not as clear, hence the Justice Department law suit.

[1] https://www.fastcompany.com/91142929/us-justice-department-s...

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#573

Post by homebrewer »

nijave wrote: post #565
rootusrootus wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I used to hate them, I've now gained an appreciation for PayPal for this kind of stuff. For when I don't want to give my credit card to yet another vendor to possibly be compromised, or manage a sketchy subscription, PayPal is a pretty good solution. I do prefer Apple, but not every subscription can be bought that way.

Yeah PayPal is pretty good here. There's a page that lists all your billing subscriptions and you can cancel them right there. It's a shame credit cards don't offer the same thing (Chase is able to list them all but provides no contact information or ability to revoke authorization)

The two banks I use provide information about your subscriptions and allow you to cancel any of them with a click of a button. I'm not in the US though (relatively poor "global South"); sometimes it pays to get technology with a significant delay.

One of them can also create zero-cost virtual Visa Golds in a couple of minutes. If I need to use a really sketchy service, I simply create a throwaway card, put a bit of cash there, pay for what I need, and then delete the card.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#574

Post by lenerdenator »

This is going to be so nice for the 96 days between now and the next Presidential administration that will gut this regulation and probably even tell your gym that they can require the sacrifice of your first born to cancel your membership in the name of economic growth.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#575

Post by llm_nerd »

Ensorceled wrote: post #571
llm_nerd wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the Adobe thing is the common punching bag, I'm going to play devil's advocate and say that people probably need to either be more honest, or need to pay more attention. When you subscribe there are three prices given- Monthly, Annual paid monthly, and Annual prepaid. The Annual paid monthly very clearly indicates that there is a fee if you cancel after 14 days. The annual paid monthly is some 33% less expensiv…

> I'm going to play devil's advocate and say that people probably need to either be more honest, or need to pay more attention. Neither the Devil nor Adobe need an advocate, but maybe you could help Adobe out with the Justice Department law suit around subscription dark patterns[1]? That signup page you took a screen shot of is the current version, older ones had more dark patterns and definitely were not as clear, h…

>Neither the Devil nor Adobe need an advocate

Civilization needs advocates against users being intentionally, misleadingly dense.

>That signup page you took a screen shot of is the current version

It is the version of the page that the FTC sued Adobe about. Adobe hasn't changed it.

Feel free to cite the complaint - https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/032-RedactedCom...

I'll help by posting a screenshot of the FTC's screenshot-

https://imgur.com/a/DQXYAN8

Page 8 from the complaint. Precisely the same disclaimers and selections.

Adobe has used this same format for three+ years. And no, the FTC filing a complaint -- responding to people doing the "woe am I...I am the victim for my carelessness" doesn't mean it has merit. Something got some congresspeople's to complaint to the FTC so they did something. And Adobe will probably just abolish discounting to make them go away.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#576

Post by compiler-guy »

caseyohara wrote: post #514
pcurve wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds more like non-compliance than a workaround, banking on their alumni being more forgiving to it. ;-)

In 2015, I somehow got subscribed to the Rensselaer School of Architecture Alumni mailing list on my personal email. I didn't go to RPI, I had never shown any interest in RPI, I don't even know anyone who went to RPI, and I had graduated from a different university about five years earlier. I would get two or three emails a month from them, and I would click unsubscribe every time. The emails would continue. Finally,…

Possibly a typo or false address given by someone else, and the. It’s in their system forever. I get things for some person who apparently fat fingers our somewhat close email addresses all the time.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#577

Post by lenerdenator »

seizethecheese wrote: post #406
xracy wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We gotta stop giving SCOTUS credit for bad decisions when they make unpopular opinions. SCOTUS is not supposed to make legislation, and if they are going to try and override Chevron from the bench without legislation, then we have to ignore them. SCOTUS' power/respect only goes as far as they're actually listening to the will of Americans. This is not representing Americans if they override. Same for abortion (just l…

This is insane and wrong. The Supreme Court is explicitly not supposed to represent the will of the people. You’re advocating nothing less than a type of coup. And against my best judgement, I’ll add that in it was roe v wade itself that was essentially judges creating law (shoehorning abortion rights into a right to privacy is a stretch).

> The Supreme Court is explicitly not supposed to represent the will of the people.

The problem is, they have to, to a certain point. All government institutions ultimately derive their power from the willingness of the governed to live by their laws. Most decisions are minor enough and stacked with enough legalese that the average American doesn't care, but when you have more and more decisions that are as far out of right-field as the recent court has been making and corrupt justices making those decisions, it erodes the willingness of people to live under those decisions as time goes on.

> (shoehorning abortion rights into a right to privacy is a stretch).

I mean, only if you want the government telling twelve-year-olds that they'll need to push a baby out of a pelvis that is not yet wide enough to safely give birth.

The idea of "privacy" in this context is that generally speaking, it's not the government's business what you do with your body while knowingly and consensually under the care of a doctor. That is private for purposes of what the government can tell you to do. Maybe "confidentiality" would be a better term for the court to have used, but it's not a completely weird term.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#578

Post by orourke »

Uehreka wrote: post #190

When people try and say that regulating stuff like this is impossible, I often think about how unreasonably great the regulations around “Unsubscribe” links in emails are. There really seems to be no loophole or workaround despite there being huge incentive for there to be one. Every time I click an “Unsubscribe” link in an email (it seems like they’re forced to say “Unsubscribe” and not use weasel words to hide the…

In the case of unsubscribe links I think it’s more about having your sending reputation destroyed by ISPs because they will penalize you heavily if people have to use the spam button to unsubscribe. Our company makes it as easy as possible and practically encourage people to unsubscribe because of this.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#579

Post by jdyer9 »

Uehreka wrote: post #190

When people try and say that regulating stuff like this is impossible, I often think about how unreasonably great the regulations around “Unsubscribe” links in emails are. There really seems to be no loophole or workaround despite there being huge incentive for there to be one. Every time I click an “Unsubscribe” link in an email (it seems like they’re forced to say “Unsubscribe” and not use weasel words to hide the…

Except Walgreens. They say unsubscribe and then they just don't do it.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#580

Post by mindslight »

rootusrootus wrote: post #326
cortesoft wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, I remember when Amazon Prime first started, I signed up for the free trial to get free shipping on something. Of course, I forgot about it and didn’t cancel, but then I got an email from Amazon saying, “hey, you didn’t cancel your prime subscription but you also haven’t used it at all, so we are going to not charge you and cancel it for now. Here is how you easily restart your subscription if you end up needing…

Early Amazon was pro-customer in a way that I think most people have forgotten. Maybe that was always the strategy? They were losing money for years, and maybe that was investing in the company, or maybe it was allowing really large losses to keep customers happy, planning all along to eventually clamp down when people were addicted. And here we are. Their return rate is still pretty terrible, IIRC. I bet they are tr…

Egregious? The policy is literally "free returns". In my experience, they could cut it down a lot by not constantly playing pricing games and also getting rid of their slow spiteful shipping. Like if I'm in the market for a type of thing, and they have one of their sale days where two or three options are all 30% off, I'll order a few options and then decide later. Or if I'm in the middle of project I'll order extra parts that I merely might need so that I don't get interrupted waiting for another shipping round (especially if I don't currently have a "trial" of their sunk cost fallacy program). If I already have to do an Amazon return sometime, then taking more items is basically free. I know their system is wasteful as fuck, but that's on them for setting up such terrible policies. I'm certainly not going to validate the business model of letting companies cheat customers based on making us feel bad about how much they waste. (all the repeatedly damaged items from Target having no clue how how to pack items is another example that spelled out this larger dynamic for me. at least Target lets you keep the salvage much of the time)
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