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Ireland's big school secret: how a year off-curriculum changes teenage lives

theguardian.com

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Re: Ireland's big school secret: how a year off-curriculum changes teenage lives

#71

Post by BeetleB »

dyauspitr wrote: post #32
Eumenes wrote: post #27

My child is too young for school but my partner and I expect to homeschool. We've talked about gap years in the childs early/mid teens for travel/backpacking/nature excursions. I wish fellowship and apprentice work was more commonplace in the younger years too. Get out of the classroom and experience the real world.

How do you plan on your child building out their social skills? Surely a couple of playdates a week with a few other kids isn’t going to cut it.

From what I've seen, surely going to school doesn't cut it either :-)

Let's not cherry pick. Plenty of people have adverse social outcomes due to school.

Re: Ireland's big school secret: how a year off-curriculum changes teenage lives

#72

Post by BeetleB »

yongjik wrote: post #51
Eumenes wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Children learn what they live. Put kids in a class and they will live out their lives in an invisible cage, isolated from their chance at community; interrupt kids with bells and horns all the time and they will learn that nothing is important or worth finishing; ridicule them and they will retreat from human association; shame them and they will find a hundred ways to get even. The habits taught in large-scale orga…

And put those children in an invisible cage with two adults who will tell them when to get up, what to wear, what to eat, what to read, and when to go to bed, and these kids will learn...... what? I think homeschooling could work for some combinations of parents and kids, but so many discussion sounds like "Of course it's going to work for my kids because I'm different!"

> And put those children in an invisible cage with two adults who will tell them when to get up, what to wear, what to eat, what to read, and when to go to bed, and these kids will learn...... what?

Sounds like a typical day for a regular school kid. Most school kids up to a certain age need a parent to wake them up, and don't get to pick their clothes or their food. And get shepherded into the bed.

Not sure what any of this has to do with homeschooling. It's just basic life.

In fact, from the parents I know who home school, the kids actually have more freedoms than school kids do. Their work is tailored to their skill level, so no BS tedious homework. As long as the parents have time, the schedule is flexible as well. If your kid performs better at noon - great! Start then.

Re: Ireland's big school secret: how a year off-curriculum changes teenage lives

#73

Post by dotnet00 »

BeetleB wrote: post #70
dotnet00 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often mention to people that graduate research helped me mature for this same reason. Prior to grad school, I just followed the strict well-defined path modern schooling tends to have - spend most time studying, very limited investment in hobbies and out-of-school friendships, get good grades, focus only on moving to the next year. My grades were great, but it left me as an underdeveloped anxious mess of a person w…

> but also won't exploit you the way an employer can Eh, my experience is the opposite. A lot more exploitation in grad school than in industry. It's a lot easier to change jobs than change professors/universities. I recall multiple cases of formal/semi-formal interventions where other professors or the department had to force an advisor to let the person graduate (they wanted to keep milking them for more papers). A…

>Eh, my experience is the opposite. A lot more exploitation in grad school than in industry. It's a lot easier to change jobs than change professors/universities.

>I recall multiple cases of formal/semi-formal interventions where other professors or the department had to force an advisor to let the person graduate (they wanted to keep milking them for more papers).

That's kind of what I mean though. In grad school other professors you've worked with might still keep an eye out for you. Under an exploitative employer, the way I was previously, I wouldn't know any better, I had no sense for the value of my time/work and I used to panic about having to send simple emails to people, quitting a job used to sound equivalent to suicide.

For me there's also the factor that as an international student, it's a lot easier for employers to exploit me than a school.

Edit: Although, come to think of it, I do know of other departments at my uni where even other professors can't be relied on to help in such cases. So I guess you're right.

Re: Ireland's big school secret: how a year off-curriculum changes teenage lives

#74

Post by BeetleB »

dotnet00 wrote: post #73
BeetleB wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but also won't exploit you the way an employer can Eh, my experience is the opposite. A lot more exploitation in grad school than in industry. It's a lot easier to change jobs than change professors/universities. I recall multiple cases of formal/semi-formal interventions where other professors or the department had to force an advisor to let the person graduate (they wanted to keep milking them for more papers). A…

>Eh, my experience is the opposite. A lot more exploitation in grad school than in industry. It's a lot easier to change jobs than change professors/universities. >I recall multiple cases of formal/semi-formal interventions where other professors or the department had to force an advisor to let the person graduate (they wanted to keep milking them for more papers). That's kind of what I mean though. In grad school ot…

> Under an exploitative employer, the way I was previously, I wouldn't know any better, I had no sense for the value of my time/work and I used to panic about having to send simple emails to people, quitting a job used to sound equivalent to suicide.

Seems the lessons you learned as a grad student are the lessons I learned as an employee :-)

My first job was exploitative. I eventually gave them the middle finger and left. Everyone told me I was crazy: "All jobs are like this. You have to suck it up"

Eh, no. None of my jobs since then have been that bad. Half of them I actually enjoyed.

This is very relevant: https://xkcd.com/1768/

Re: Ireland's big school secret: how a year off-curriculum changes teenage lives

#75

Post by justonenote »

acjohnson55 wrote: post #67
asdasdsddd wrote: post #61

I think a lot of the mental illness for young boys is that the education ladder deprives them of responsibility until way past maturity.

Out of curiosity, why do you think that's a problem for boys, in particular?

can't answer for GP but most likely because he is male himself and so speaking to what he knows.

Your question sounds like you are baiting, like you are pretending to be so naive that you are not aware that men and women face different expectations and circumstances growing up, and moreso there is something wrong with expressing concern for boys without also including girls.

Maybe, hopefully, I'm reading you wrong.

Re: Ireland's big school secret: how a year off-curriculum changes teenage lives

#76

Post by talideon »

I was in one of the first years that did transition year, and it was almost nothing but good for me. It got me much more out of my shell and I was able to do subjects I wouldn't have been able to do otherwise. Art, in particular, thought there weren't enough subsequently in the senior cycle for me to continue with it, sadly. My work placements were fun in different ways: I worked in a electronics repair shop and learned to solder and basic electronics (I already had a healthy respect for high voltage), worked with some architects, and also in a music studio and got an understanding of music production.

I've heard reasons for not doing it, but it's so good for broadening the horizons of who you think you are that almost all of those reasons are almost moot.

Re: Ireland's big school secret: how a year off-curriculum changes teenage lives

#77

Post by Loughla »

wiredfool wrote: post #19

In Ireland -- with one kid in Junior Cert and one who did Junior Cert, then had an external Transition Year, then self studied for A levels, and one who's done home school/self study through GCSE and now doing A levels. It's an optional, definitely not universal thing. Not all schools offer it, and even then I get the impression that it's well less than half the students take the opportunity. The implementation is al…

What are A levels, by the way? I hear this a lot on British television but have no context.

Re: Ireland's big school secret: how a year off-curriculum changes teenage lives

#78

Post by talideon »

anotherhue wrote: post #15

20 years ago it was considered a 'doss year' (waste/screw-around etc.), and the general perception was that it was for those that require a little more time in the oven developmentally before proceeding to the next stage. I was a child then so I don't know if that was true, but certainly the majority of people who took it were not academically inclined.

Not in my school: the vast majority who took it (this was the '90s, when it started) were the ones doing almost all honours.

It heavily depends on the school, I would guess, however, but often those who need "more time in the oven" come just as much from the academically inclined side as from the less academically inclined side. For both, it allows them a broader window on who they might be.

Re: Ireland's big school secret: how a year off-curriculum changes teenage lives

#79

Post by talideon »

MattPalmer1086 wrote: post #18
illwrks wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this not the same as a gap year? I’m Irish but unfortunately never bothered with TY. I live in the UK now so I’ve a limited understanding of TY and the ‘Gap year’.

The article says it is like a gap year, but during secondary school. Clearly not the same as taking time off before university when you are already an adult though. Participation in some activities is required, so it's a bit more structured - and I don't think you can take off on your own to travel the world!

It's nothing like a gap year. It's just less academically focused.

Re: Ireland's big school secret: how a year off-curriculum changes teenage lives

#80

Post by colmmacc »

talideon wrote: post #76

I was in one of the first years that did transition year, and it was almost nothing but good for me. It got me much more out of my shell and I was able to do subjects I wouldn't have been able to do otherwise. Art, in particular, thought there weren't enough subsequently in the senior cycle for me to continue with it, sadly. My work placements were fun in different ways: I worked in a electronics repair shop and lear…

I did transition year in 1996/1997, and I think we were only the second class to do it in my school. We took another European language for a year, and I did Art, Home Economics, Metalwork, and Woodworking classes that had no aptitude for and never would have picked for my leaving cert years. They were great and I learned skills that I still use.

For my work placement, I worked in a folk instrument store and learned a lot about acoustic instruments, but also the basics of showing up on time, getting things done, and more. It was invaluable. The reduced pressure meant I could also work at the local McDonald's, and the income from 6 months of shift-work there made a big difference for me and my family. It was a start of some modest savings that allowed me to even consider going to college later (I still had to work through college, but at least it was doable).

Transition Year, the introduction of Free Third Level Education, and the blinded CAO application process for universities were all game changers for me. I grew up in Ballyfermot, a working class part of Dublin, and when I went to college I found out there was still only a tiny handful of people from there who'd had that opportunity. Still so thankful.

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