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FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

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Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#511

Post by tshaddox »

Uehreka wrote: post #190

When people try and say that regulating stuff like this is impossible, I often think about how unreasonably great the regulations around “Unsubscribe” links in emails are. There really seems to be no loophole or workaround despite there being huge incentive for there to be one. Every time I click an “Unsubscribe” link in an email (it seems like they’re forced to say “Unsubscribe” and not use weasel words to hide the…

I've always wondered how Vanguard gets away with this. They send a lot of promotional emails that all say this near the bottom of the message:

> Because you're a valued Vanguard client, we thought you'd be interested in this information. If you prefer not to receive emails of this type, simply email us. Please do not reply to this message to opt out.

> The material in this message is promotional in nature.

No unsubscribe link.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#512

Post by BobaFloutist »

andrewla wrote: post #484
advisedwang wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> regulatory body straining at the limits of its remit The FTC's establishing laws make "unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce" unlawful and give them power to regulate that. It doesn't seem to be straining at the limits of remit to rule that making it hard for people to end a subscription is unfair/deceptive.

To whom is this "unfair"? A business has a legitimate interest in preventing customers from taking advantage of bulk discounts (committing to a long term of service in exchange for lower prices), and customers have a legitimate interest in opting to discontinue a service that is no longer needed. Where to draw that line does not seem cut and dry to me. What is the specific nature of the "deception" -- what claim was…

Paying in advance for a bulk subscription is not the same as an "auto renew", and I think you know that.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#513

Post by dionian »

shepherdjerred wrote: post #125
krunck wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon is the worst in this regard.

You should try cancelling the New York Times, Bon Appetite, or Planet Fitness

having to go in physically to cancel for Planet Fitness was absurd and infuriating. but it worked, i delayed it for months out of procrastination

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#514

Post by caseyohara »

pcurve wrote: post #363
justinpombrio wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unsubscribe links are a fantastic regulation, but there is a workaround. I must have received at least a dozen emails from Brown after graduating despite unsubscribing to every email they sent. The trouble is they're endlessly creative about the lists they put you on. I'd get one email from "Alumni Connections" and then another from "Faculty Spotlight" and then another from "Global Outreach" and then another from "Ev…

Sounds more like non-compliance than a workaround, banking on their alumni being more forgiving to it. ;-)

In 2015, I somehow got subscribed to the Rensselaer School of Architecture Alumni mailing list on my personal email. I didn't go to RPI, I had never shown any interest in RPI, I don't even know anyone who went to RPI, and I had graduated from a different university about five years earlier.

I would get two or three emails a month from them, and I would click unsubscribe every time. The emails would continue. Finally, in 2018, I got the "We're sorry to see you go" unsubscribe confirmation email.

Then about three months ago, I started getting emails from the Rensselaer Office of Annual Giving. But this time it was to my work email, not my personal email. How would they get my work email address?

I have no idea how this happened, but I suspect universities play fast and loose with their mailing lists for exactly the reason you said. It's obnoxious.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#515

Post by asdf123qweasd »

Uehreka wrote: post #190

When people try and say that regulating stuff like this is impossible, I often think about how unreasonably great the regulations around “Unsubscribe” links in emails are. There really seems to be no loophole or workaround despite there being huge incentive for there to be one. Every time I click an “Unsubscribe” link in an email (it seems like they’re forced to say “Unsubscribe” and not use weasel words to hide the…

There is malicous compliance. They can create new email categories, to which you are auto "resubscribed" - you validating that the email is used and has a reader that reads the emails and cleans his mailbox is worth a buck.

Then you hovering over topics you might be interested before unsubscribng gives away preferences.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#516

Post by jacobgkau »

maccard wrote: post #418
inetknght wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is your experience? Reporting spam does not block the email from being received by my client -- it only blocks the mail from being seen in the inbox, but it still shows up in the spam box. I don't send mail that gets reported as spam in the first place. Or, if it does, then I haven't been meaningfully affected because I can still send and receive the email I want to.

I’m not sure what you expect to happen? > I don't send mail that gets reported as spam in the first place. I ran a newsletter where people had to opt in to receiving it. It was announce news for a video game. You only ended up on this list if you entered your email, clicked join list, and then clicked the link in the email we sent to you to confirm subscription. We had a big unsubscribe button at the very top of the…

> I’m not sure what you expect to happen?

They're probably expecting their email provider to take that info and use it somewhere upstream of their own individual account. Which, as you've pointed out, does happen.

Maybe they don't believe that it happens often enough or something, but the thresholds do need to be reasonably high since, as you pointed out, some people hit the button whether it's justified or not. If the threshold for email provider action was too low, you'd end up not being able to send to anyone with Gmail because one guy forgot he signed up to a list (or signed up and immediately reported it as spam to spite the sender).

The person you replied to also sounds like they may be using an offline or third-party email client, though. There's a difference between a "Report Spam" button somewhere your email provider controls, and a "Mark as Spam" button in your third-party email client. I'd assume there's some kind of protocol that could potentially allow third-party clients to report it back to the email provider, but would also assume it may not be as reliable as first-party interfaces.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#517

Post by tomjen3 »

JacobThreeThree wrote: post #162
shepherdjerred wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should try cancelling the New York Times, Bon Appetite, or Planet Fitness

Cancelling The Economist was pretty terrible too.

I cancelled through the “sound very angry and know what charge back means” when I wrote to their customer service. That was years ago. I would likely resub when I can do so through Apple Store.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#518

Post by paulgb »

jedberg wrote: post #408

The nice thing about this is that most companies already have everything in place to do it, because California has had this rule for a few years. So all they have to do is remove the "not in California" filter.

Californians: has it worked out well? As a non-Californian it does seem to have, given how often the cancellation terms are specifically more favorable to Californians, but I wonder how it works in practice.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#519

Post by marklubi »

justinpombrio wrote: post #265
Uehreka wrote: post #190

When people try and say that regulating stuff like this is impossible, I often think about how unreasonably great the regulations around “Unsubscribe” links in emails are. There really seems to be no loophole or workaround despite there being huge incentive for there to be one. Every time I click an “Unsubscribe” link in an email (it seems like they’re forced to say “Unsubscribe” and not use weasel words to hide the…

Unsubscribe links are a fantastic regulation, but there is a workaround. I must have received at least a dozen emails from Brown after graduating despite unsubscribing to every email they sent. The trouble is they're endlessly creative about the lists they put you on. I'd get one email from "Alumni Connections" and then another from "Faculty Spotlight" and then another from "Global Outreach" and then another from "Ev…

The lists can be ridiculous sometimes. Many sites have an 'unsubscribe from all' option, that is basically just an unsubscribe from all CURRENT lists.

Later they create another list and you end up subscribed to just that new one, even though the unsubscribe from all option is still selected.

Edit: Another pet peeve is when you click the link to unsubscribe, and they want you to enter your email address. Bonus points are awarded when your email is in the querystring, but they fail to populate it.

Re: FTC announces "click-to-cancel" rule making it easier to cancel subscriptions

#520

Post by cortesoft »

kelnos wrote: post #429
rootusrootus wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Early Amazon was pro-customer in a way that I think most people have forgotten. Maybe that was always the strategy? They were losing money for years, and maybe that was investing in the company, or maybe it was allowing really large losses to keep customers happy, planning all along to eventually clamp down when people were addicted. And here we are. Their return rate is still pretty terrible, IIRC. I bet they are tr…

> Early Amazon was pro-customer in a way that I think most people have forgotten. I think this is why I'm still such a loyal customer, and use Amazon for so many purchases. Intellectually I know that Amazon does super crappy things, both to their workers and around their website and sales. But I've been a Prime member since it was first offered, nearly 20 years now, and I still fondly remember when Amazon's customer…

Interestingly, I actually still have only had great experiences with Amazon customer service. I have a feeling that is entirely due to how much my family continues to spend with them, though. It is pretty well known that their customer service response to things varies with how much your spend.
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