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How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

reuters.com

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Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#71

Post by tharne »

sottol wrote: post #42
matthberg wrote: post #15

This section of the literal Geneva Convention [1], which Israel is a signatory of [2] seems rather relevant. While this article's breakdown of the what's and how's is quite interesting, keeping international law in mind while talking about the attack seems important. - "2. It is prohibited to use booby-traps or other devices in the form of apparently harmless portable objects which are specifically designed and const…

Not taking sides on the attack, but, wow, you ommited half the text - important in this context: "unless either: (a) they are placed on or in the close vicinity of a military objective; or (b) measures are taken to protect civilians from their effects, for example, the posting of warning sentries, the issuing of warnings or the provision of fences."

> Not taking sides on the attack, but, wow, you ommited half the text

Regarding anything Israel/Palestine related, nuance and good faith left the chat a long time ago.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#72

Post by tharne »

soulofmischief wrote: post #63
sir0010010 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pagers were sold to Hezbollah. The military objectives achieved were: a) to prevent the combatants holding the pagers from being able to attack Israel in the future b) to disrupt the communications of Hezbollah, therefore, making it more difficult for them to coordinate attacks Israel. Also, the explosives used were weak such that most people near them were maimed rather than killed. Meaning, it is reasonable to…

The only acceptable "civilian casualty per targeted combatant ratio" is zero . The recent terrorist attack committed by Israel in Lebanon and Syria breaks every respectable moral compass. Innocent people, including children, were harmed and continue to be harmed by Israel's ongoing war campaign. And I can't believe I have to say this, but "maiming" children is not any less morally bankrupt than killing them.

> The only acceptable "civilian casualty per targeted combatant ratio" is zero.

A lot of German civilians were killed during World War 2. Would you have preferred handing the Germans all of Europe to prevent that? As others have noted, reality is significantly more complex than theoretical ethics. Often times your choice is not between right and wrong, but between wrong and somewhat less wrong.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#73

Post by antman »

sottol wrote: post #42
matthberg wrote: post #15

This section of the literal Geneva Convention [1], which Israel is a signatory of [2] seems rather relevant. While this article's breakdown of the what's and how's is quite interesting, keeping international law in mind while talking about the attack seems important. - "2. It is prohibited to use booby-traps or other devices in the form of apparently harmless portable objects which are specifically designed and const…

Not taking sides on the attack, but, wow, you ommited half the text - important in this context: "unless either: (a) they are placed on or in the close vicinity of a military objective; or (b) measures are taken to protect civilians from their effects, for example, the posting of warning sentries, the issuing of warnings or the provision of fences."

There is a sleigh of hand expression change in many texts where “operative” becomes “combatant” therefore all locations become military and all assassinations legitimate. There is no way anyone could claim they knew where they would go off and towards what kind of casualties military combatants or civilian authority or anybody standing by. Also nobody claimed there were warmings to civilians as per the text quoted, not even the standard “Every person not leaving is considered a combatant” which has been the standard public announcement during the forced relocations and refugee areas bombings.

Disclaimer: I have no horse in the race so I might be missing many details and nuances

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#74

Post by tmnvix »

tharne wrote: post #69
bhouston wrote: post #66

Leon Panetta, the former head of the CIA, said that the indiscriminate nature of these attacks makes him consider these attacks to be a form of terrorism: https://thehill.com/policy/international/4893900-leon-panett... Volker Türk, the UN commission for human rights "explained that international law prohibits the use of booby-trapped items used in daily life, and 'it is a war crime to commit violence intended to spre…

> Leon Panetta, the former head of the CIA, said that the indiscriminate nature of these attacks makes him consider these attacks to be a form of terrorism: This was the exact opposite of "indiscriminate". The Israelis blew up pagers belonging to members of a known terrorist organization. People love to try an claim that they're anti-Israel and not antisemitic, but no other country in the world would be held to this…

I haven't seen any actual data on who died as a result of this attack, but is it confirmed that it was essentially only members of Hezbollah's militant wing? I've heard reports that that wasn't the case. Are other members of Hezbollah considered legitimate targets? From memory, the Iranian ambassador had one. Were they a legitimate target?

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#75

Post by defen »

soco wrote: post #26
avnfish wrote: post #13

Wow, they did a licensing deal with a legitimate manufacturer in Taiwan to get the battery listed on official websites? This runs so much deeper than I expected. Supply chains are one heck of an attack surface...

I wonder who else bought such special batteries, whether they were/are aware of that...

The battery wasn't actually for sale; they just created fake product pages for it so that if anyone looked up the part number, it wouldn't be immediately obvious that it was fake.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#76

Post by bhouston »

tmnvix wrote: post #74
tharne wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Leon Panetta, the former head of the CIA, said that the indiscriminate nature of these attacks makes him consider these attacks to be a form of terrorism: This was the exact opposite of "indiscriminate". The Israelis blew up pagers belonging to members of a known terrorist organization. People love to try an claim that they're anti-Israel and not antisemitic, but no other country in the world would be held to this…

I haven't seen any actual data on who died as a result of this attack, but is it confirmed that it was essentially only members of Hezbollah's militant wing? I've heard reports that that wasn't the case. Are other members of Hezbollah considered legitimate targets? From memory, the Iranian ambassador had one. Were they a legitimate target?

> I haven't seen any actual data on who died as a result of this attack, but is it confirmed that it was essentially only members of Hezbollah's militant wing? I've heard reports that that wasn't the case.

4 of the 12 killed in early reports were either children and healthcare workers, so early estimates were 33% civilian causalities. I am not sure of final tallies, but the source is here: https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/09/18/lebanon-exploding-pagers...

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#77

Post by JoeyBananas »

bhouston wrote: post #66

Leon Panetta, the former head of the CIA, said that the indiscriminate nature of these attacks makes him consider these attacks to be a form of terrorism: https://thehill.com/policy/international/4893900-leon-panett... Volker Türk, the UN commission for human rights "explained that international law prohibits the use of booby-trapped items used in daily life, and 'it is a war crime to commit violence intended to spre…

There's absolutely no doubt that it's terrorism.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#78

Post by JumpCrisscross »

bhouston wrote: post #76
tmnvix wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't seen any actual data on who died as a result of this attack, but is it confirmed that it was essentially only members of Hezbollah's militant wing? I've heard reports that that wasn't the case. Are other members of Hezbollah considered legitimate targets? From memory, the Iranian ambassador had one. Were they a legitimate target?

> I haven't seen any actual data on who died as a result of this attack, but is it confirmed that it was essentially only members of Hezbollah's militant wing? I've heard reports that that wasn't the case. 4 of the 12 killed in early reports were either children and healthcare workers, so early estimates were 33% civilian causalities. I am not sure of final tallies, but the source is here: https://www.hrw.org/news/20…

> 4 of the 12 killed in early reports were either children and healthcare workers, so early estimates were 33% civilian causalities

A 3:1 CCR is close to par for the course for NATO and positively honourable for e.g. Russia [1].

Tptacek's take is correct. (Of course it's Patrick.) One can reasonably disagree with the strike, even if limited to the precedent it set for plastic detonators that most countries' scanners can't pick up. But as a military tactic, even taking Hezbollah's numbers at face value, it was normally discriminating for a Western power.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio#2023_I...

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#79

Post by JumpCrisscross »

defen wrote: post #75
soco wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder who else bought such special batteries, whether they were/are aware of that...

The battery wasn't actually for sale; they just created fake product pages for it so that if anyone looked up the part number, it wouldn't be immediately obvious that it was fake.

Supply chains aren't perfect. There is legitimacy to asking if any of the pagers or walkie talkies wound up elsewhere.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#80

Post by JumpCrisscross »

throw32i3ii wrote: post #12

Key components are 6 grams of white pentaerythritol tetranitrate (PETN) and "highly flammable material" as a detonator. PETN was developed in 1906, and is accessible to more advanced hobby chemists. So we have explosive device that passes through airport security scanner. And can be made at home by dedicated individuals... What are the implications for air travel?

> we have explosive device that passes through airport security scanner

I don't think it passes through modern American scanners--they can theoretically discriminate plastic explosives (and presumably detonators) from water, though whether it gets caught is a matter of TSA competence.

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