Live data from Hacker News

How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

reuters.com

61–70 of 265 posts

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#61
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. It is pretty clear that it does apply to me, so agree to disagree. 2. I linked why both Israel and Lebanon are both bound? Not sure why it would matter whether it's international or not, but it crossed borders, so to me it seems clear. 3. I agree, it was an amazing feat, and minimal casualties considering the impact. Also, due to suspected/impending exposure of pager operation, there was no time to delay without e…

2. I think the issue is whether it is an armed conflict between nations (but i am not a lawyer) While even though hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government, their entire modus operandi is based on being a non-state organization, which helps them keep the conflict low intensity (until at least up until this year)

2. To my reading, there are two issues being conflated - the POW rights of non-state organizations, and separately, the booby trap clause.

The POW rights issues do have considerations for the actions of you and your enemy, and whether either are non-state organizations or members of such, etc.

The booby trap clause is simply equally binding against all signatories, regardless of who you are employing booby traps against, and regardless of whether or not you or the target is or isn’t a non-state organization or member thereof.

I honestly feel like this whole conflict has been on a repeated loop since second intifada in 80s, mostly due to Israel not wanting a one or two state solution on Israel’s side, Palestinian government or representatives not wanting their trade or money to have to flow through Israel, and everyone else trying to keep the current 40 year loop on repeat because it is a useful wedge issue for political bargaining. It’s like Henry Kissinger knew that the delicate balance of terror was the least-bad outcome, and now we are unable to break free of adversarial approaches to the conflict due to the continuing hostilities on all sides.

The status quo sucks for all involved, but all involved think that it would be worse for their team if there were peace in the Mid East, so no one is interested in broader peace process beyond immediate Palestine-Israel conflict, which itself is a covert proxy war between Israel and rest of Mid East, which itself is the overt proxy war proper between Israel and rest of Mid East.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#62
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not taking sides on the attack, but, wow, you ommited half the text - important in this context: "unless either: (a) they are placed on or in the close vicinity of a military objective; or (b) measures are taken to protect civilians from their effects, for example, the posting of warning sentries, the issuing of warnings or the provision of fences."

Please elaborate on the measures taken to protect and warn civilians, or which specific military objectives the children hurt by those exploding pagers were in the close vicinity of.

[deleted]

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please elaborate on the measures taken to protect and warn civilians, or which specific military objectives the children hurt by those exploding pagers were in the close vicinity of.

The pagers were sold to Hezbollah. The military objectives achieved were: a) to prevent the combatants holding the pagers from being able to attack Israel in the future b) to disrupt the communications of Hezbollah, therefore, making it more difficult for them to coordinate attacks Israel. Also, the explosives used were weak such that most people near them were maimed rather than killed. Meaning, it is reasonable to…

The only acceptable "civilian casualty per targeted combatant ratio" is zero. The recent terrorist attack committed by Israel in Lebanon and Syria breaks every respectable moral compass. Innocent people, including children, were harmed and continue to be harmed by Israel's ongoing war campaign. And I can't believe I have to say this, but "maiming" children is not any less morally bankrupt than killing them.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#64

This section of the literal Geneva Convention [1], which Israel is a signatory of [2] seems rather relevant. While this article's breakdown of the what's and how's is quite interesting, keeping international law in mind while talking about the attack seems important. - "2. It is prohibited to use booby-traps or other devices in the form of apparently harmless portable objects which are specifically designed and const…

[deleted]

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pagers were sold to Hezbollah. The military objectives achieved were: a) to prevent the combatants holding the pagers from being able to attack Israel in the future b) to disrupt the communications of Hezbollah, therefore, making it more difficult for them to coordinate attacks Israel. Also, the explosives used were weak such that most people near them were maimed rather than killed. Meaning, it is reasonable to…

The only acceptable "civilian casualty per targeted combatant ratio" is zero . The recent terrorist attack committed by Israel in Lebanon and Syria breaks every respectable moral compass. Innocent people, including children, were harmed and continue to be harmed by Israel's ongoing war campaign. And I can't believe I have to say this, but "maiming" children is not any less morally bankrupt than killing them.

[flagged]

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#66
Leon Panetta, the former head of the CIA, said that the indiscriminate nature of these attacks makes him consider these attacks to be a form of terrorism:

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4893900-leon-panett...

Volker Türk, the UN commission for human rights "explained that international law prohibits the use of booby-trapped items used in daily life, and 'it is a war crime to commit violence intended to spread terror among civilians.'"

https://newrepublic.com/post/186244/leon-panetta-israel-leba...

Also covered by Human Rights Watch here criticizing the indiscriminate nature of the attacks means they were against IHL:

https://www.hrw.org/the-day-in-human-rights/2024/09/19

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#67
post #42

This section of the literal Geneva Convention [1], which Israel is a signatory of [2] seems rather relevant. While this article's breakdown of the what's and how's is quite interesting, keeping international law in mind while talking about the attack seems important. - "2. It is prohibited to use booby-traps or other devices in the form of apparently harmless portable objects which are specifically designed and const…

Not taking sides on the attack, but, wow, you ommited half the text - important in this context: "unless either: (a) they are placed on or in the close vicinity of a military objective; or (b) measures are taken to protect civilians from their effects, for example, the posting of warning sentries, the issuing of warnings or the provision of fences."

Hold on a second. That's not the second half of what they quoted. It is in a separate section. I'm having trouble figuring out what it actually applies to, because Article 7 is written in a very confusing fashion.

It has 3 sections. Section 1 looks like this:

> 1. Without prejudice to the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict relating to treachery and perfidy, it is prohibited in all circumstances to use booby-traps and other devices which are in any way attached to or associated with:

and then lists 10 categories that include a wide variety of things, such as internationally recognized protective signs, dead people, children's toys, kitchen utensils (not in military locations), animals, and several others.

Then there is section 2, which the person above quoted:

> 2. It is prohibited to use booby-traps or other devices in the form of apparently harmless portable objects which are specifically designed and constructed to contain explosive material.

That is the entirety of section 2. Finally there is section 3, which I'm going to quote in full:

> 3. Without prejudice to the provisions of Article 3, it is prohibited to use weapons to which this Article applies in any city, town, village or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians in which combat between ground forces is not taking place or does not appear to be imminent, unless either:

> (a) they are placed on or in the close vicinity of a military objective; or

> (b) measures are taken to protect civilians from their effects, for example, the posting of warning sentries, the issuing of warnings or the provision of fences.

So..., #1 and #2 both prohibit a bunch of booby traps. Then #3 says that it is prohibited to use weapons covered by this Article (so everything in #1 and #2?) in places with a lot of civilians unless certain precautions are taken.

If this means that the #2 items can be used in civilian areas if those precautions are taken, does it mean the same for the #1 items? With #3 being a separate section I'm not seeing how it can be limited to just modifying #2. It does say "weapons to which this Article applies".

That would result in some truly weird restrictions. It would mean for example that I cannot booby trap a corpse except in the case where I'm placing it in a place with civilians and have either placed it close to a military objective or taken measures to keep civilians from tripping it. If I wanted to place that booby trap in some remote area where only military is around I'd run afoul of #1 without the #3 exception to allow it.

It would make sense if it is an additive thing. If I say booby trap a corpse I might be charged with a violation of #1. If I do that in a civilian area I might additionally be charged with a violation of #3 unless I took the precautions listed in #3.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#68

Leon Panetta, the former head of the CIA, said that the indiscriminate nature of these attacks makes him consider these attacks to be a form of terrorism: https://thehill.com/policy/international/4893900-leon-panett... Volker Türk, the UN commission for human rights "explained that international law prohibits the use of booby-trapped items used in daily life, and 'it is a war crime to commit violence intended to spre…

These takes are problematic because it's clear to most observers that the attacks were, by the standards set by ground combat in Fallujah, NATO air operations in Kunar Province, or operations against ISIL in Inherent Resolve, the pager/radio attacks were drastically more discriminating, and caused a tiny fraction of the noncombatant casualties. This, of course, is also a distorted standard capturing only NATO/aligned combat operations; the picture gets much worse if you pull in Gulf State military operations, Azerbaijan, or Russia/Ukraine.

(Turk's booby-trap argument is challenging for two additional reasons; the first is that the encrypted pagers and ICOM radios we're discussing are military command & control equipment, not items used "in daily life" in the sense contemplated by the booby trap convention, and further the definition of a booby trap in that convention involves a device triggered when random people approach it, not one detonated at a specific instruction by the party that placed it. The history of the booby trap convention is tied up in the human cost of unwinding booby traps after conflicts have wound down, which is not a problem the pagers posed.)

I'm concerned that people attempting (reasonably!) to communicate disapproval for IDF operations generally are damaging their credibility by trying to fold the pager/radio attack into their message. To me, the pager/radio attack is damning for an entirely different reason: with proper seriousness and resourcing, it's clear that Israel was able to incapacitate a near-peer military adversary with vastly lower noncombatant cost than what they've managed in Gaza.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#69

Leon Panetta, the former head of the CIA, said that the indiscriminate nature of these attacks makes him consider these attacks to be a form of terrorism: https://thehill.com/policy/international/4893900-leon-panett... Volker Türk, the UN commission for human rights "explained that international law prohibits the use of booby-trapped items used in daily life, and 'it is a war crime to commit violence intended to spre…

> Leon Panetta, the former head of the CIA, said that the indiscriminate nature of these attacks makes him consider these attacks to be a form of terrorism:

This was the exact opposite of "indiscriminate". The Israelis blew up pagers belonging to members of a known terrorist organization.

People love to try an claim that they're anti-Israel and not antisemitic, but no other country in the world would be held to this kind of ridiculous standard in the face of constant terrorist attacks on a civilian population.

Re: How Israel’s bulky pager fooled Hezbollah

#70
post #69

Leon Panetta, the former head of the CIA, said that the indiscriminate nature of these attacks makes him consider these attacks to be a form of terrorism: https://thehill.com/policy/international/4893900-leon-panett... Volker Türk, the UN commission for human rights "explained that international law prohibits the use of booby-trapped items used in daily life, and 'it is a war crime to commit violence intended to spre…

> Leon Panetta, the former head of the CIA, said that the indiscriminate nature of these attacks makes him consider these attacks to be a form of terrorism: This was the exact opposite of "indiscriminate". The Israelis blew up pagers belonging to members of a known terrorist organization. People love to try an claim that they're anti-Israel and not antisemitic, but no other country in the world would be held to this…

>The Israelis blew up pagers belonging to members of a known terrorist organization.

And the people who happened to be next to them when they went off?

Post reply on HN