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Intel and AMD form advisory group to reshape x86 ISA

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Re: Intel and AMD form advisory group to reshape x86 ISA

#31

Post by tester756 »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #16
rdudek wrote: post #3

I wish we could just get away from x86 "standard" and move on. If there is something that still needs it, x86 emulation is very efficient nowadays. Just look what Apple has done with this ARM architecture. Even now, Qualcom's ARM processors running Windows are doing a fantastic job emulating x86 as needed.

What have they done with ARM? Cut out all I/O put memory on package and pay for the latest TSMC node? I think ARM is overhyped because people see Apple's success and just assume aarch64 > x86_64

>I think ARM is overhyped because people see Apple's success and just assume aarch64 > x86_64

It seems like that's the case

"ARM has bigger share in people's minds than actual numbers"

Re: Intel and AMD form advisory group to reshape x86 ISA

#32

Post by wmf »

ArchOversight wrote: post #20
Almondsetat wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's emulation literally implements some x86 in hardware, and they will likely drop that silicon when the transition end, so I won't rely on that

It doesn't implement some x86 in hardware, it implements some memory ordering guarantees in hardware to match what x86 requires. However that is a very minor implementation, there is no actual x86 in Apple's ARM. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S138376212... TSO could be implemented by other ARM processors easily as well, to provide the same memory ordering guarantees. Besides that the x86 code is t…

Besides TSO there are a bunch of ARM extensions designed to match x86 behavior. https://dougallj.wordpress.com/2022/11/09/why-is-rosetta-2-f... I'm curious whether Oryon and X925 implement these instructions and whether other emulators like FEX use them.

Re: Intel and AMD form advisory group to reshape x86 ISA

#33

Post by nerdjon »

rdudek wrote: post #3

I wish we could just get away from x86 "standard" and move on. If there is something that still needs it, x86 emulation is very efficient nowadays. Just look what Apple has done with this ARM architecture. Even now, Qualcom's ARM processors running Windows are doing a fantastic job emulating x86 as needed.

I think for most 'general' computing, yeah Arm is fine. It has been that way for a while with smart phones and tablets being the primary device many people use now. Either you can run it through a compatibility layer like Rosetta 2 or it shifts to native. The performance hit is unlikely to really be felt for something like Word.

But the traditional gaming market (not mobile, I am not dismissing mobile but it is not the traditional market that is relevant to this conversation) is likely not going to make that shift anytime soon.

To the best of my knowledge I have yet to see any ability for a consumer to build their own ARM pc (someone correct me if I am wrong here?) and there are many gamers that will fight tooth and nail to not give that up.

If consoles did it, it would most likely mean a break in backwards compatibility or a lot of investment in emulation.

With consoles often being the devices that set a performance standard for PC's, I doubt they would be moving to ARM in the next generation so would not happen until the 10th generation. We are likely 2-3 years away from hearing about gen 9, and then another ~8 years until ARM becomes a conversation for any serious game console. There just would not be any incentive for PC to make a serious switch until that point (or around that time) since it would also fruther complicate game development.

There just have not been much movement in this regard. We are seeing a few ports come to Mac (and iPhone) but those are the exceptions.

Not saying that companies are not trying to try to push Arm hardware for gaming, try to claim that their compatibility layer is just fine for playing games on Windows. I am sure some people will do it. But I just don't see any serious effort to push Arm into gaming outside of mobile devices.

Re: Intel and AMD form advisory group to reshape x86 ISA

#35

Post by pseudosavant »

trynumber9 wrote: post #10
rdudek wrote: post #3

I wish we could just get away from x86 "standard" and move on. If there is something that still needs it, x86 emulation is very efficient nowadays. Just look what Apple has done with this ARM architecture. Even now, Qualcom's ARM processors running Windows are doing a fantastic job emulating x86 as needed.

Apple is the only one making ARM chips fast enough to be competitive even with emulation. Qualcomm isn't on that level - they're only on par with AMD and Intel without emulation. The market won't move from the x86 duopoly to Apple's walled garden because they have a fast chip. It's on ARM to make a licensable core that's so much faster than the x86 options that people actually move to it.

> Apple is the only one making ARM chips fast enough to be competitive even with emulation.

I'd modify that to: Apple is the only one making ARM chips fast enough to be competitive, period. All of the other cores from ARM or Qualcomm aren't as fast as the top Intel and AMD x86 CPUs, just maybe more efficient. It is the reason Windows has continued to fail on ARM, because they have to use the same slow off-the-shelf cores as everyone else.

I'm a big Surface fan, and wish they had a version with an Apple M-class SoC in it, but every ARM version (which used the fastest non-Apple ARM core at the time) has been a dog compared to the same model with Intel. Just give me the iPad Air SoC in a Surface...

Re: Intel and AMD form advisory group to reshape x86 ISA

#36

Post by heraldgeezer »

rdudek wrote: post #3

I wish we could just get away from x86 "standard" and move on. If there is something that still needs it, x86 emulation is very efficient nowadays. Just look what Apple has done with this ARM architecture. Even now, Qualcom's ARM processors running Windows are doing a fantastic job emulating x86 as needed.

Why? AMDs new x86 is just as good as M3.

For gaming, emulation is shit.

I use a desktop gaming PC and I can do anything. Use it as a workstation too. Why should I switch to ARM.

Why should our enterprise laptops be ARM?

Just please, you are just spouting nonsense.

Re: Intel and AMD form advisory group to reshape x86 ISA

#37

Post by Remnant44 »

This is hopeful. Whatever the ARM enthusiasts would like, x86 is going to stick around for a long time, and working together to evolve the ISA extensions in a more cohesive manner would go a long way.

In particular, I'd really like AMD and Intel to get on the same page in terms of avx10 / avx512 support.

Many people correctly note that avx512 support is not super relevant today, but this can be laid heavily at the feet of Intel's process troubles and a terrible decision to use ISA for market segmentation purposes.

Zen4/zen5 show that it is possible to implement wide vector units on a cpu in an extremely beneficial way - even if you're running reduced width execution units under the hood, the improved frontend performance is really useful - and also actually saves power, as the decoders and schedulers account for a fair chunk of power consumption these days.

Re: Intel and AMD form advisory group to reshape x86 ISA

#38

Post by heraldgeezer »

nerdjon wrote: post #33
rdudek wrote: post #3

I wish we could just get away from x86 "standard" and move on. If there is something that still needs it, x86 emulation is very efficient nowadays. Just look what Apple has done with this ARM architecture. Even now, Qualcom's ARM processors running Windows are doing a fantastic job emulating x86 as needed.

I think for most 'general' computing, yeah Arm is fine. It has been that way for a while with smart phones and tablets being the primary device many people use now. Either you can run it through a compatibility layer like Rosetta 2 or it shifts to native. The performance hit is unlikely to really be felt for something like Word. But the traditional gaming market (not mobile, I am not dismissing mobile but it is not t…

This. I understand web devs can just use whatever runs Google Chrome but the real world is a bit more complex.

CS2 has over 900k online on Steam right now... Where people push the game to 200fps plus. A PC that can do that can also do anything else. Dev work, VMs, Docker, whatever. Why switch to ARM? Because their soy starbuxx latte workplace gets 2-3h more in battery life?

But I have to disagree on

>With consoles often being the devices that set a performance standard for PC's, I doubt they would be moving to ARM in the next generation so would not happen until the 10th generation. We are likely 2-3 years away from hearing about gen 9, and then another ~8 years until ARM becomes a conversation for any serious game console. There just would not be any incentive for PC to make a serious switch until that point (or around that time) since it would also fruther complicate game development.

Consoles used to be MIPS, POWERPC and stuff and PCs where x86 "back then".

XBOX is like the first x86 console. So I dunno your point here. Really man.

???

Switch is ARM right. Nintendo Switch.

Sony and MS went from POWERPC to x86 as IBM could not make a PPC CPU fast enough and ARM was not good in a big formfactor. Sony and MS use AMD hardware but in PCs Nvidia GPUS are still the best, yes they are my experiece personally and look at numbers. XBOX1 used to be nvidia gforce 3 but abd pricing. So all went AMD later. PS3 was CELL 8 core PPC and Nvidia 70xx GPU. 360 was PPC and AMD gpu. Wii was PPC and AMD gpu.

>There just have not been much movement in this regard. We are seeing a few ports come to Mac (and iPhone) but those are the exceptions.

Nobody on Mac is actually a gamer.

>(not mobile, I am not dismissing mobile but it is not the traditional market that is relevant to this conversation

I will btw. I do not understand why people here love mobile games. No wait I do. They are easy, quick and P2W. They are busy adults or kids or pajeets with no money.

In mobile, what sells? Gatcha games, pay to win trash. There are some gems but few and far between. They are built in a predatory way to take your money.

Re: Intel and AMD form advisory group to reshape x86 ISA

#40

Post by Atotalnoob »

akira2501 wrote: post #27
rdudek wrote: post #3

I wish we could just get away from x86 "standard" and move on. If there is something that still needs it, x86 emulation is very efficient nowadays. Just look what Apple has done with this ARM architecture. Even now, Qualcom's ARM processors running Windows are doing a fantastic job emulating x86 as needed.

No one "needs" a particular architecture. It's just that some of them are better suited to certain problems than others. If you really want to get rid of something and "move on" why not get rid of the wild class of devastating speculation bugs that every OOO processor in existence currently has? Far more valuable than worrying about how instruction bits are arranged in a stream.

Yes people need a particular architecture.

There are many legacy systems that still rely on IBM chips, mainframes, etc.

They can’t just move on without rebuilding the entire system from scratch. a monumental and risky proposition.

Even if tomorrow everyone went all in on arm, risc5, whatever, x86 is here to stay.

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