Earlier quoted context omitted.
Does the philosophy of science theorize anything about the end or limits of science and knowledge? I find that topic fascinating.
Yes. It says nothing can be proven in science and therefore reality as we know it. Things can only be falsified. But proof is the domain of mathematics… not of reality. Read the example of the black swan in the wiki link.
Gettiers in software engineering (2019)
201–210 of 222 posts
Re: Gettiers in software engineering (2019)
#202Earlier quoted context omitted.
edit : Then there's the whole "what is a cow" thing. Like if you you stuffed a cow carcass with a robot and no one could tell the difference, would that still be a cow? Or what if you came across a horrifying cow-horse hybrid, what would you call that? Or if the cow in question had a unique mutation possessed by no other cow - does it still fit the cow archetype? For example, what if the cow couldn't produce milk? Or…
You've called J and T into question, so let's do B as well. Physicists know that QM and relativity can't be true, so it's fair to say that they don't believe in these theories, in a naive sense at least. In general anyone who takes Box' maxim that all models are wrong (but some are useful) to heart, doesn't fully believe in any straightforward sense. But clearly we'd say physicists do have knowledge.
As a matter of linguistic convenience, it's easier to say that relativity (or theory X) is right means that people who use relativity to make predictions make correct predictions as opposed to relativity itself being correct or incorrect.
Re: Gettiers in software engineering (2019)
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes. It says nothing can be proven in science and therefore reality as we know it. Things can only be falsified. But proof is the domain of mathematics… not of reality. Read the example of the black swan in the wiki link.
Seems contradictory but you can clarify. If a proposition can be falsified then that is knowledge that said proposition is false, and the negation is true. If nothing can be proven or known then it must follow that nothing can be falsified.
"All swans are white."
This statement cannot be proven because it's not possible to observe all swans. There may be some swan in some hidden corner of the earth (or universe) that I did not see.
If I see one black swan, I have falsified that statement.
When you refer to "Not all swans are white" This statement can be proven true but why? This is because the original statement is a universal claim and the negation is a particular claim.
The key distinction between universal claims and particular claims explains why you can "prove" the statement "Not all swans are white." Universal claims, like "All swans are white," attempt to generalize about all instances of a phenomenon. These kinds of statements can never be definitively proven true because they rely on inductive reasoning—no matter how many white swans are observed, there’s always the possibility that a counterexample (a non-white swan) will eventually be found.
In contrast, particular claims are much more specific. The statement "Not all swans are white" is a particular claim because it is based on falsification—it only takes the observation of one black swan to disprove the universal claim "All swans are white." Since black swans have been observed, we can confidently say "Not all swans are white" is true.
Popper's philosophy focuses on how universal claims can never be fully verified (proven true) through evidence, because future observations could always contradict them. However, universal claims can be falsified (proven false) with a single counterexample. Once a universal claim is falsified, it leads to a particular claim like "Not all swans are white," which can be verified by specific evidence.
In essence, universal claims cannot be proven true because they generalize across all cases, while particular claims can be proven once a falsifying counterexample is found. That's why you can "prove" the statement "Not all swans are white"—it’s based on specific evidence from reality, in contrast to the uncertain generality of universal claims.
To sum it up. When I say nothing can be proven and things can only be falsified... it is isomorphic to saying universal claims can't be proven, particular claims can.
Re: Gettiers in software engineering (2019)
#204Re: Gettiers in software engineering (2019)
#205The problem is the word "know" being overloaded. First person know is belief. To some extent: this is just faith! Yes we have faith that the laws of physics wont change tomorrow, or we remember yesterday happened etc. Science tries to push that faith close to fact by verifying the fuck out of everthing. But we will never know why anything... The other "know" is some kind of concept of absolute truth and a coincidence…
Maybe, but it’s still a useful overload. No one wants to be pedantic every time they say they know something. It’s more of a spectrum which is really my own overloaded expression. My other one is “it’s a probabilistic matter, there’s no absolute here”
Re: Gettiers in software engineering (2019)
#206Earlier quoted context omitted.
You've called J and T into question, so let's do B as well. Physicists know that QM and relativity can't be true, so it's fair to say that they don't believe in these theories, in a naive sense at least. In general anyone who takes Box' maxim that all models are wrong (but some are useful) to heart, doesn't fully believe in any straightforward sense. But clearly we'd say physicists do have knowledge.
Sure we'd say physicists have knowledge of quantum mechanics and general relativity. And we can also say physicists have knowledge of how to make predictions using quantum mechanics and general relativity. In this sense, general relativity is no more wrong than a hammer is wrong. Relativity is simply a tool that a person can use to make predictions. Strictly speaking then relativity is not itself right or wrong, rath…
On small scales, GR and Newtonian mechanics make almost the same predictions, but make completely different claims about what exists in reality. In my view, if the theories made equally good predictions, but still differed so fundamentally about what exists, then that matters, and implies that at least one of the theories is wrong. This is more a realist, than an instrumentalist position, which perhaps is what you subscribe to, but tbh instrumentalism always seemed indefensible to me.
Re: Gettiers in software engineering (2019)
#207Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure we'd say physicists have knowledge of quantum mechanics and general relativity. And we can also say physicists have knowledge of how to make predictions using quantum mechanics and general relativity. In this sense, general relativity is no more wrong than a hammer is wrong. Relativity is simply a tool that a person can use to make predictions. Strictly speaking then relativity is not itself right or wrong, rath…
My point is that QM and GR make very different claims about what exists. Perhaps it's possible to unify the descriptions. But more likely there will be a new theory with a completely different description of reality. On small scales, GR and Newtonian mechanics make almost the same predictions, but make completely different claims about what exists in reality. In my view, if the theories made equally good predictions,…
In that sense, it's also correct to say that physicists have knowledge of relativity and quantum mechanics. I don't think any physicist including Einstein himself thinks that either theory is actually true, but they do have knowledge of both theories in much the same way that one has knowledge of "Maxatar's conjecture" and in much the way that you have knowledge of what the flat Earth proposition is, despite them being false.'
It seems fairly radical to believe that instrumentalism is indefensible, or at least it's not clear what's indefensible about it. Were NASA physicists indefensible to use Newtonian mechanics to send a person to the moon because Newtonian mechanics are "wrong"?
What exactly is indefensible? The observation that working physicists don't really care about whether a physical theory is "real" versus trying to come up with formal descriptions of observed phenomenon to make future predictions, regardless of whether those formal descriptions are "real"?
If someone choses to engage in science by coming up with descriptions and models that are effective at communicating with other people observations, experimental results and whose results go on to allow for engineering advances in technology, are they doing something indefensible?
Re: Gettiers in software engineering (2019)
#208Earlier quoted context omitted.
My point is that QM and GR make very different claims about what exists. Perhaps it's possible to unify the descriptions. But more likely there will be a new theory with a completely different description of reality. On small scales, GR and Newtonian mechanics make almost the same predictions, but make completely different claims about what exists in reality. In my view, if the theories made equally good predictions,…
If you are aware that "Maxatar's conjecture is that 1 + 1 = 5", then it's correct to say that you have knowledge about "Maxatar's conjecture", regardless of whether the conjecture is actually true or false. Your knowledge is that there is some conjecture that 1 + 1 = 5, not that it's actually true. In that sense, it's also correct to say that physicists have knowledge of relativity and quantum mechanics. I don't thin…
>Were NASA physicists indefensible to use Newtonian mechanics to send a person to the moon because Newtonian mechanics are "wrong"?
No, it was defensible, and that's exactly my point. Even though they didn't believe in the content of the theory (and ignoring the fact that they know a better theory), they do have knowledge of reality through it.
I don't think instrumentalism makes sense for reasons unrelated to this discussion. A scientist can hold instrumentalist views without being a worse scientist for it, it's a philosophical position. Basically, I think it's bad metaphysics. If you refuse to believe that the objects described by a well-established theory really exist, but you don't have any concrete experiment that falsifies it or a better theory, then to me it seems like sheer refusal to accept reality. I think people find instrumentalism appealing because they expect that any theory could be replaced by a new one that could turn out very different, and then they see it as foolish to have believed the old one, so they straight up refuse to believe or care what any theory says about reality. But you always believe something, whether you are aware of it or not, and the question is whether your beliefs are supported by evidence and logic.
Re: Gettiers in software engineering (2019)
#209The impossibility of solving the Gettier problem meshes nicely with the recent trend to Baysianism and Pragmatism. Instead of holding out for justified true belief and "Bang-Bang" either labeling them True or False, give them degrees of belief which are most useful for prediction and control.
I don't understand the Gettier problem. The example of the cow for example: You do not have a justified belief there is a cow there, all you can justify is that there is the likeness of a cow there. To be able to claim there is a cow there requires additional evidence.
Every other time you've been in that school building, the clocks have shown you the right time, so you feel very confident that the clocks on the wall are accurate.
But this time, you happen to be in the room with the non-functioning clock. It says "2:02" but by great good fortune, it actually happens to be 2:02.
So your belief is:
1. True. It actually is 2:02.
2. Justified. The vast majority of the time, if you see a clock on a wall in that building, it is working fine.
But should we say that you know the time is 2:02? Can you get knowledge of the time from a broken clock? Of course not. You just got lucky.
In order to count as knowledge, it has to be justified in the right way, which, alas, nobody has been able to specify exactly what that way should be. So far, nobody has come up with criteria which we can't find break in a similar way.
// all you can justify is that there is the likeness of a cow there //
If you see something which looks real, you are justified in believing it is real. If you see your friend walking into the room, sure, you've seen your friend's likeness in the room. But you are justified in believing your friend is in the room.
So if you see something that looks like a cow in a field, you are justified in believing there is a cow in a field, even though looks may be deceiving.
Re: Gettiers in software engineering (2019)
#210I was a philosophy major in college and semantic quibbling over Gettier problems was popular while I was there. I have always believed that Gettier's popularity was due to the fact that the paper was only three pages, and therefore it was the only paper that the academics actually read to the end. I never thought there was anything particularly deep or noteworthy about the problem at all - it is fundamentally a debat…
This is one of the places that I think some training in "real math" can help a lot. At the highest levels I think philosophers generally understand this, but a lot of armchair philosophers and even some nominally trained and credentialed ones routinely make the mistake of thinking there is a definition of "knowledge", and that arguing and fighting over what it is is some sort of meaningful activity, as if, if we coul…
Also: how did you come to know all the things you claim to in your comment (and I suspect in a few others in your history)?