Gettiers in software engineering (2019)
161–170 of 222 posts
Re: Gettiers in software engineering (2019)
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
A robot in a cow carcass is not a cow, it's a "robot in a cow carcass". Someone might believe it's a cow because they lack crucial information but that's on them, doesn't change the fact. A cow-horse hybris is not a cow, it's a cow-horse hybrid. A cow with a genetic mutation is a cow with a genetic mutation. A cow created in a lab, perhaps even grown 100% by artificial means in-vitro is of course still a cow since it…
I have this pet theory that Philosophy is kind of the Alternative Medicine of intellectual pursuits. In the same way that Alternative Medicine is doomed to consist of stuff that doesn't work (because anything proven to work becomes "Medicine"), Philosophy is made entirely of ideas that can't be validated through observation (because then they'd be Science), and also can't be rigorously formalized (because then they'd…
"Some ungentle reader will check us here by informing us that philosophy is as useless as chess, as obscure as ignorance, and as stagnant as content. “There is nothing so absurd,” said Cicero, “but that it may be found in the books of the philosophers.” Doubtless some philosophers have had all sorts of wisdom except common sense; and many a philosophic flight has been due to the elevating power of thin air. Let us resolve, on this voyage of ours, to put in only at the ports of light, to keep out of the muddy streams of metaphysics and the “many-sounding seas” of theological dispute. But is philosophy stagnant? Science seems always to advance, while philosophy seems always to lose ground. Yet this is only because philosophy accepts the hard and hazardous task of dealing with problems not yet open to the methods of science—problems like good and evil, beauty and ugliness, order and freedom, life and death; so soon as a field of inquiry yields knowledge susceptible of exact formulation it is called science. Every science begins as philosophy and ends as art; it arises in hypothesis and flows into achievement. Philosophy is a hypothetical interpretation of the unknown (as in metaphysics), or of the inexactly known (as in ethics or political philosophy); it is the front trench in the siege of truth. Science is the captured territory; and behind it are those secure regions in which knowledge and art build our imperfect and marvelous world. Philosophy seems to stand still, perplexed; but only because she leaves the fruits of victory to her daughters the sciences, and herself passes on, divinely discontent, to the uncertain and unexplored."
Re: Gettiers in software engineering (2019)
#163I think there are plenty of philosophical problems that emerge from our desire to describe things in centralized ways. Consciousness, understanding and intelligence are three of them. I prefer "search" because it is decentralized, and cover personal/inter-personal and social domains. Search defines a search space unlike consciousness which is silent about the environment and other people when we talk about it. Search does what consciousness, understanding and intelligence are for. All mental faculties: attention, memory, imagination, planning - are forms of search. Learning is search for representation. Science is search, markets are search, even DNA evolution and protein folding are search. It is universal and more scientific. Search removes a lot of the mystery and doesn't make the mistake to centralize itself in a single human.
Re: Gettiers in software engineering (2019)
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're view is more inline with the philosophy of science which holds nothing an ever be justified. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/articles/Karl_Popper read The problem of induction and demarcation: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/articles/Falsifiability Basically to some it all up because we aren't "omniscient" nothing can in actuallity ever be known.
Does the philosophy of science theorize anything about the end or limits of science and knowledge? I find that topic fascinating.
Read the example of the black swan in the wiki link.
Re: Gettiers in software engineering (2019)
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
False propositions are not knowledge, only true propositions are knowledge. Therefore you cannot know something true that is actually false, you can only believe something true that is actually false. Precisely describing how one moves from belief to knowledge is exactly what epistemology is about.
> False propositions are not knowledge, only true propositions are knowledge. This is something that a lot of Greeks would have had issues with, most probably Heraclitus, and Protagoras for sure. Restricting ourselves to Aristotelian logic back in the day has been extremely limiting, so much so that a lot of modern philosophers cannot even comprehends how it is to look outside that logic.
That's arguably good. If you restrict yourself to something that you know is a valid method of ascertaining truth, then you have much higher confidence in the conclusion. The fact that we still struggle even with getting this restricted method shows that restrictions are necessary and good!
Then you bootstrap your way to a more comprehensive method of discourse from that solid foundation. Like Hilbert's program, which ultimately revealed some incredibly important truths about logic and mathematics.
Re: Gettiers in software engineering (2019)
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not sure I'm understanding your stance fully, so please forgive any poor interpretation. > certain, deterministic, non-bayesian primitive model of our bodies What makes you certain the model of our body is non-Bayesian? Does this imply we have an innate model of our body and how it operates in space? I could be convinced that babies don't inherently have a model of their bodies (or that they control their bodies)…
Because bayesian conditioning doesn't resolve the direction of causation, and gives no way of getting 'certain' data which is an assumption of the method (, as well as assuming relevance). In bayesian approaches it's assumed we have some implicity metatheory which gives us how the data relates to the model, so really all bayesian formulae should have an implicit 'Theory' condition which provides, eg., the actual prob…
Re: Gettiers in software engineering (2019)
#167Good to have a name for this! My favourite debugging technique is "introduce a known error". This validates that your set of "facts" about the file you think you're editing are actually facts about the actual file you are editing. For example: is the damn thing even compiling?
Re: Gettiers in software engineering (2019)
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
edit : Then there's the whole "what is a cow" thing. Like if you you stuffed a cow carcass with a robot and no one could tell the difference, would that still be a cow? Or what if you came across a horrifying cow-horse hybrid, what would you call that? Or if the cow in question had a unique mutation possessed by no other cow - does it still fit the cow archetype? For example, what if the cow couldn't produce milk? Or…
A robot in a cow carcass is not a cow, it's a "robot in a cow carcass". Someone might believe it's a cow because they lack crucial information but that's on them, doesn't change the fact. A cow-horse hybris is not a cow, it's a cow-horse hybrid. A cow with a genetic mutation is a cow with a genetic mutation. A cow created in a lab, perhaps even grown 100% by artificial means in-vitro is of course still a cow since it…
"Anyone can sit around thinking about things all day" is like saying "anybody can sit and press keys on a keyboard all day".
I took a semester of philosophy at uni, perhaps the best invested time during my years there and by far more demanding than most of what followed. 100 % recommend it for anyone who wants to hone their critical reasoning skills and intellectual development in general.
Re: Gettiers in software engineering (2019)
#169I'm not sure I see the big deal. Justification is on a scale of 0 to 1, and at 1 you are onmiscient. We live in a complicated world; no one has time to be God so you just accept your 0.5 JTB and move on. Or for the belief part, well, "it's not a lie if you believe it". And as for the true bit, let's assume that there really is a cow, but before you can call someone over to verify your JTB, an alien abducts the cow an…
Tumblr is loginwalled now, so I can't find the good version of this, but I'll try and rip it:
Philosophical questions like "what is knowledge" are hard precisely because everyone has an easy and obvious explanation that is sufficient to get them trough life.
But, when forced to articulate that explanation, people often find them to be incomparable with other people's versions. Upon probing, the explanations don't hold at all. This is why some ancient Greek thought experiments can be mistaken for zen koans.
Yeah, you can get by in life without finding a rigorous answer. The vast majority of human endeavor beyond subsistence can be filed under the category "I'm not sure I see the big deal."
To say that about the question of knowledge and then vamp for 200 words is not refusing to engage. It's patching up a good-enough answer to suit a novel challenge and moving on. Which is precisely why these questions are hard, and why some people are so drawn to exploring for an answer.
Re: Gettiers in software engineering (2019)
#170I was a philosophy major in college and semantic quibbling over Gettier problems was popular while I was there. I have always believed that Gettier's popularity was due to the fact that the paper was only three pages, and therefore it was the only paper that the academics actually read to the end. I never thought there was anything particularly deep or noteworthy about the problem at all - it is fundamentally a debat…
But none of that is actually true. Especially the part where it will have some sort of meaningful impact if we can just nail it down, let alone whether it would be beneficial or not.
There are many definitions of knowledge. From a perspective where you only know something if you are 100% sure about something and also abstractly "correct", which I call "abstract" because the whole problem in the first place is that we all lack access to an oracle that will tell us whether or not we are correct about a fact like "is there a cow in the field?" and so making this concrete is not possible, we end up in a very Descartian place where just about all you "know" is that you exist. There's some interesting things to be said about this definition, and it's an important one philosophically and historically, but... it also taps out pretty quickly. You can only build on "I exist" so far before running out of consequences, you need more to feed your logic.
From another perspective, if we take a probabilistic view of "knowledge", it becomes possible to say "I see a cow in the field, I 'know' there's a cow there, by which I mean, I have good inductive reasons to believe that what I see is in fact a cow and not a paper mâché construct of a cow, because inductively the probability that someone has set up a paper mâché version of the cow in the field is quite low." Such knowledge can be wrong. It isn't just a theoretical philosophy question either, I've seen things set up in fields as a joke, scarecrows good enough to fool me on a first glance, lawn ornamentation meant to look like people as a joke that fooled me at a distance, etc. It's a real question. But you can still operate under a definition of knowledge where I still had "knowledge" that a person was there, even though the oracle of truth would have told me that was wrong. We can in fact build on a concept of "knowledge" in which it "limits" to the truth, but doesn't necessarily ever reach there. It's more complicated, but also a lot more useful.
And I'm hardly exhausting all the possible interesting and useful definitions of knowledge in those two examples. And the latter is a class of definitions, not one I nailed down entirely in a single paragraph.
Again, I wouldn't accuse the most-trained philosophers of this in general, but the masses of philosophers also tend to spend a lot of time spinning on "I lack access to an oracle of absolute truth". Yup. It's something you need to deal with, like "I think, therefore I am, but what else can I absolutely 100% rigidly conclude?", but it's not very productive to spin on it over and over, in manifestation after manifestation. You don't have one. Incorporate that fact and move on. You can't define one into existence. You can't wish one into existence. You can't splat ink on a page until you've twisted logic into a pretzel and declared it that it is somehow necessary. If God does exist, which I personally go with "Yes" on, but either way, He clearly is not just some database to be queried whenever we wonder "Hey, is that a cow out there?" If you can't move on from that, no matter how much verbiage you throw at the problem, you're going to end up stuck in a very small playground. Maybe that's all they want or are willing to do, but it's still going to be a small playground.